# Using reflexive pronouns after mentioning a group to which you belong **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 27, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051 "2020-10-27T18:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CardboardBoxx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardboardboxx/32/7079_2.png) [@CardboardBoxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CardboardBoxx)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/1 "2020-10-27T18:47:12Z")
First to head this off at the pass: **I know that some people believe that grammar is arbitrary or is constantly changing so roll with it whatever. This is not the thread to discuss this.** Assume I’m on the red team. “Members of the red team like myself will work afternoons” “Members of the yellow team, plus myself, will work afternoons” The second one is clearly wrong. Does the fact that the red group includes me make the first one OK? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/2 "2020-10-27T18:53:37Z")
Second one seems perfectly fine to me. In both cases you could substitute “me” for “myself”, so “myself” is used for emphasis, rather than as a reflexive pronoun. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/3 "2020-10-27T18:55:00Z")
[Moderating] Moved to GQ. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![CardboardBoxx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardboardboxx/32/7079_2.png) [@CardboardBoxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CardboardBoxx)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/4 "2020-10-27T18:56:37Z")
2nd one is certainly wrong. You can’t use myself without referring to yourself at all, that much is clear. To use “myself” on the 2nd one it would have to be rephrased to something like “Members of the yellow team will work afternoons plus I will myself.” ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/5 "2020-10-27T19:03:26Z")
Members of the red team, **such as** myself, will work afternoons. Members of the yellow team will work afternoons, and so will I. _Although, you could leave off the “members of.”_ The red team will work afternoons. The yellow team will work afternoons, and I will as well. _I probably would personally say something like_ We on the red team will work afternoons. Those on the yellow team will work afternoons, and I will too. ---
**Author:** ![CardboardBoxx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardboardboxx/32/7079_2.png) [@CardboardBoxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CardboardBoxx)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/6 "2020-10-27T19:07:17Z")
I wasn’t asking for a rephrase, it’s easy to make it unambiguously correct. I was looking for whether the first one was correct, not a better way to phrase it. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/7 "2020-10-27T19:08:19Z")
Technically, it’s not correct, because it should be “such as” rather than “like.” ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2020, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/8 "2020-10-27T19:10:58Z")
From Merriam-Websters: > **Using Myself in Place of I or Me: Usage Guide** > _Myself_ is often used where _I_ or _me_ might be expected: > as subject > to wonder what _myself_ will say — Emily Dickinson > others and _myself_ continued to press for the legislation > > after _as, than_ , or _like_ > an aversion to paying such people as _myself_ to tutor > was enough to make a better man than _myself_ quail old-timers like _myself_ > and as object. > now here you see _myself_ with the diver > for my wife and _myself_ it was a happy time > Such uses almost always occur when the speaker or writer is referring to himself or herself as an object of discourse rather than as a participant in discourse. The other reflexive personal pronouns are similarly but less frequently used in the same circumstances. Critics have frowned on these uses since about the turn of the century, probably unaware that they serve a definite purpose. Users themselves are as unaware as the critics—they simply follow their instincts. **These uses are standard.** Both of your examples fall under this description. You’re trying to shoehorn one of them into a more restrictive standard usage simply because you feel only one of them is _wrong_. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2020, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/9 "2020-10-27T19:14:42Z")
“Members of the Red Team, to which I belong, will work afternoons.” I often go by feel. If the phraseology is doubtful or awkward, I find another way of saying the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2020, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/10 "2020-10-27T19:27:47Z")
> [@CardboardBoxx](#): > > Does the fact that the red group includes me make the first one OK? God no. Please don’t say stuff like that. ME dammit. ME. “Members of the red team like me will work afternoons” ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/11 "2020-10-27T19:32:17Z")
FWIW my attitude is that a reflexive pronoun is used only when the noun or pronoun directly referred to has appeared in the sentence. E.g. John/he shaves himself every morning. I sat myself in front of the computer to read SDMB. So, I speaking only for myself, would not use either sentence. Arguably you have referred indirectly to yourself in the first, but not the second sentence. But of course YMMV. Added edit: Notice that had I said above, “Speaking for myself, I…” so the rule I gave isn’t even quite the one I use. ---
**Author:** ![CardboardBoxx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardboardboxx/32/7079_2.png) [@CardboardBoxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CardboardBoxx)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/12 "2020-10-27T19:40:33Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Critics have frowned on these uses since about the turn of the century I’m with the critics. I disagree with the person who wrote that M-W article. For Dickenson, poetic language can always be given leeway. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/13 "2020-10-27T19:56:17Z")
> [@CardboardBoxx](#): > > I’m with the critics. I disagree with the person who wrote that M-W article. For Dickenson, poetic language can always be given leeway. There _might_ be a single person who wrote that, but it’s the word of the collected editors of a major US dictionary. But what’s really relevant for your question is that if you want to apply such a narrow standard, neither of your examples are acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/14 "2020-10-28T01:22:46Z")
“Myself” is the victim of overcorrection in the examples in the OP and also emails I have received, such as, “If you have questions, contact the Director of HR or myself.” In the OP both examples should be “me.” ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-reflexive-pronouns-after-mentioning-a-group-to-which-you-belong/924051/15 "2020-10-28T03:37:06Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Notice that had I said above, “Speaking for myself, I…” so the rule I gave isn’t even quite the one I use However, it’s common for a sentence to have a pronoun near the beginning, only to have its antecedent appear later in the same sentence. Example: "In her recent article, Jennifer Rubin argued that . . . " Myself, I (arrrghhh!) find such sentences hard to parse, and they are a pet peef that I have. When I see the phrase “In her recent article” and have not yet seen the antecedent in a previous sentence, I immediately wonder “In whose recent article?” Antecedents should antecede!