# Using the toilet on Shabbat
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [December 4, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697 "2008-12-04T17:20:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/101 "2008-12-05T18:24:43Z")
> [@Keeve](#):
>
> (Writing IS one of the 39 categories.)
Can Jewish students get extensions in college for term papers and such? I’m sure in reality, 99 out of 100 times, not writing during the Sabbath doesn’t really impede the progress of a term paper … but, you know – hypothetically?
Come to think of it, though … a mid-week Jewish holiday (assuming Sabbath laws are in effect for them [?]) could pose a problem for some types of school work. I used to get writing assignments that were handed out on Monday and due Wednesday, for example. If that Tuesday (sunset Mon-sunset Tues) were a Jewish holiday, might that pose a problem? Do Orthodox Jewish student routinely address such matters with professors beforehand?
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/102 "2008-12-05T18:27:12Z")
> [@](#):
>
> How about teaching/tutoring – both traditional academics and teaching of “non-work” skills such as acting and singing?
Teaching might be allowed in general, but you’d have to be very careful about the writing prohibition. I know that in my field, at least, I couldn’t teach any meaningful amount without writing.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/103 "2008-12-05T18:28:04Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#):
>
> Actually, that was Yom Kippur. Nonetheless, a similar principle is involved.
Ground level question: strictly, is an Orthodox Jewish athlete allowed to compete during the Sabbath? Does it make a difference whether or not the athlete is professional?
For instance, I am assuming that going out in the backyard and tossing around a football for fun is allowed. I am also assuming that if a few neighborhood kids show up, it would be OK for them to have a Saturday-morning football game in the backyard. Good assumptions, or no?
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/104 "2008-12-05T18:31:20Z")
> [@bordelond](#):
>
> Can Jewish students get extensions in college for term papers and such? I’m sure in reality, 99 out of 100 times, not writing during the Sabbath doesn’t really impede the progress of a term paper … but, you know – hypothetically?
>
> Come to think of it, though … a mid-week Jewish holiday (assuming Sabbath laws are in effect for them [?]) could pose a problem for some types of school work. I used to get writing assignments that were handed out on Monday and due Wednesday, for example. If that Tuesday (sunset Mon-sunset Tues) were a Jewish holiday, might that pose a problem? Do Orthodox Jewish student routinely address such matters with professors beforehand?
Heh. I’m in grad school now.
The economics course I’m currently taking had in it’s syllabus:
> [@](#):
>
> No make up exam will be give for the midterm exam. You are responsible for checking the exam date in the outline and avoiding any conflict with other commitments.
Sure enough, the midterm was on the holiday of Sukkos (a holiday with similar rules to Shabbos). I emailed the professor, explained the situation to him, and arranged to take the test another time. (I ended up taking it a week early.)
I have yet to run across a teacher who made my life difficult because of Shabbos observance.
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/105 "2008-12-05T18:33:21Z")
My husband and I judge middle-school writing competitions that take place on Saturdays. The students for an Orthodox school that competes write their entries on the day before and the essays are mixed in with the others, by the students who appear on Saturday to write. We never know which student wrote which essay.
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/106 "2008-12-05T18:34:09Z")
> [@bordelond](#):
>
> Ground level question: strictly, is an Orthodox Jewish athlete allowed to compete during the Sabbath? Does it make a difference whether or not the athlete is professional?
There are authorities who frown on athletic activities on Shabbos in general. Certainly any organized athletic activity would be deemed not in the spirit of Shabbos.
> [@](#):
>
> For instance, I am assuming that going out in the backyard and tossing around a football for fun is allowed. I am also assuming that if a few neighborhood kids show up, it would be OK for them to have a Saturday-morning football game in the backyard. Good assumptions, or no?
My kids sometimes shoot hoops in the backyard on summer Shabbos afternoons. But it’s pretty much on an ad-hoc basis.
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/107 "2008-12-05T18:34:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Teaching might be allowed in general, but you’d have to be very careful about the writing prohibition. I know that in my field, at least, I couldn’t teach any meaningful amount without writing.
Yeah, I started thinking about examples in my head. ISTM that voice and acting coaches could get plenty done with a student.
For someone tutoring grade-school children in math or what have you, an Orthodox Jewish tutor could certainly view the child’s work and visually monitor the child’s efforts on paper, correct? Just not pick up a pencil and write something out.
…
Random thought – are Jewish children, before their bar/bat mitsvah, exempt from any Sabbath laws? Can they write things, doodle, color in a coloring book, etc.
What inspired that question is that in Catholicism, before a child’s Confirmation (around 8th grade), they are not on the ultimate hook for most categories of sins. After Confirmation, Catholics are expected to be fully responsible for their actions. I was wondering if the bar/bat mizvah held a similar significance (among others).
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/108 "2008-12-05T18:39:36Z")
> [@bordelond](#):
>
> Random thought – are Jewish children, before their bar/bat mitsvah, exempt from any Sabbath laws? Can they write things, doodle, color in a coloring book, etc.
>
> What inspired that question is that in Catholicism, before a child’s Confirmation (around 8th grade), they are not on the ultimate hook for most categories of sins. After Confirmation, Catholics are expected to be fully responsible for their actions. I was wondering if the bar/bat mizvah held a similar significance (among others).
The idea is pretty similar in Judaism. Of course, we also view the period before Bar/Bat Mitzvah as a “training period.” As such, we don’t normally allow pre-BM kids to perform actions that violate Shabbos.
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/109 "2008-12-05T18:50:02Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#):
>
> As such, we don’t normally allow pre-BM kids to perform actions that violate Shabbos.
While at the same time, no one in an Orthodox household leaps across the room to prevent a 4-year-old from playing with Legos or Play Doh (purposeful construction). You just take them away and use it as a low-key teaching moment, right?
Come to think of it … what are the common ways Orthodox children amuse themselves during Sabbath when the Leapsters and other electronic games get picked up? Sounds like construction/modeling toys would be out, too. No coloring books or doodling pads. Hmmm.
You did mention backyard sports is OK. Board games? Cards? Reading books is time-honored, and presumably allowed.
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/110 "2008-12-05T18:56:08Z")
> [@bordelond](#):
>
> While at the same time, no one in an Orthodox household leaps across the room to prevent a 4-year-old from playing with Legos or Play Doh (purposeful construction). You just take them away and use it as a low-key teaching moment, right?
Well, you educate a child according to his or her level. If the kid is under two, you probably wouldn’t even take it away at all because the child would not understand the significance of Shabbos anyway. As the child gets older, s/he is expected to follow the laws more closely.
> [@](#):
>
> You did mention backyard sports is OK. Board games? Cards? Reading books is time-honored, and presumably allowed.
Yes, yes, and yes.
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/111 "2008-12-05T18:57:03Z")
> [@Keeve](#):
>
> If there are any Reform Jews in this thread, I hope they’ll respond. But it is my understanding that the basic philosophy behind the Reform movement is that all or most of the laws we’ve been mentioning are outmoded and have no relevance today. They are unlikely to walk to synagogue unless they live so close that walking is more convenient than driving. They do stress synagogue attendance and some other rituals, but in general consider the Torah’s laws to be man-made and non-binding.
In my experience, this is pretty spot-on, although of course it varies from person to person (a Reform friend of mine kept a kosher kitchen for years, which is a little unusual) and congregation to congregation. Although Reformim don’t necessarily follow the Shabbas rules, it is common to treat the day differently from the rest of the week - ie, no working, no shopping, no running around doing errands, but maybe doing other pleasurable activities that may or may not violate the Orthodox Shabbas rules, ie, gardening, taking a hike somewhere pretty, relaxing with a good book.
As for Conservativim, in practice it seems like a lot of them follow the Reformim in practice, but in theory they’re supposed to keep the Shabbas like the Orthodox. One Conservative friend horrified her parents when she became shomer shabbas. Another friend in college who was Conservative said she decided to become shomer shabbas because it’s what the Conservative movement says you should do - I recently friended her on Facebook and she now identifies as Orthodox.
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### Author:  [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/112 "2008-12-05T19:19:09Z")
> [@cwthree](#):
>
> How about a automatic flusher that was rigged to go off at random intervals throughout the day? The result is beneficial, you know that it will happen, but you don’t know for sure when it’s going to happen.
>
> Alternatively, what about a toilet that is constantly cycling water through the bowl so it need not be flushed? I’m thinking that this WOULD be kosher in the same way that Shabbat-kosher lamps are (the switch is turned on and the bulb is lit before Shabbat, and there’s an opaque shade that can be opened or closed to let the light through).
This reminds me of what a friend said happened in hi-rise buildings in Israel (so it’s not a first-hand observation). Forbidden to “make a circuit”, riders can’t press a button to go to a particular floor or even summon the car. So the elevators are programmed to stop and open at each and every floor, which is OK.
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### Author:  [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/113 "2008-12-05T19:26:21Z")
> [@Kyla](#):
>
> In my experience, this is pretty spot-on, although of course it varies from person to person (a Reform friend of mine kept a kosher kitchen for years, which is a little unusual) and congregation to congregation. Although Reformim don’t necessarily follow the Shabbas rules, it is common to treat the day differently from the rest of the week - ie, no working, no shopping, no running around doing errands, but maybe doing other pleasurable activities that may or may not violate the Orthodox Shabbas rules, ie, gardening, taking a hike somewhere pretty, relaxing with a good book.
>
> As for Conservativim, in practice it seems like a lot of them follow the Reformim in practice, but in theory they’re supposed to keep the Shabbas like the Orthodox. One Conservative friend horrified her parents when she became shomer shabbas. Another friend in college who was Conservative said she decided to become shomer shabbas because it’s what the Conservative movement says you should do - I recently friended her on Facebook and she now identifies as Orthodox.
My partner and his family go to a conservative temple which is very loosey goosey with the Shabbas rules. For example, the parking lot has quite a few cars on Saturday, even in nice weather. The most egregious, I thought, was when our daughter had her bat mitzvah. Taking pictures was forbidden during the service but were allowed in the temple, right next to the Torah, after services as long as it was the temple’s approved photographer (ie, the temple got kickbacks). It was ok to break the rules as long as it behooved the temple.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/114 "2008-12-05T19:29:41Z")
I didn’t know what “shomer shabbas” referred to in **Kyla’s** post above, so I went and checked it out on Wikipedia. I got some interesting information that is in the ballpark of some of my questions upthread:
> [@](#):
>
> **Social dimensions**
> **In the past, it was relatively uncommon to be shomer Shabbat in the United States, even among the Orthodox. Emanuel Feldman writes that it was a “rarity” in the American Orthodoxy of the 1950’s. Overall, political scientist Charles Liebman estimated that about 4% of American Jews were shomer shabbos in the 1960s.** [3] Among other factors, Saturday had not yet been established as a day off from work, and many American Jews found that insistence on Shabbat observance would cost them their livelihood. During this period, to improve observance, Flatbush rabbis operated a Shomer Shabbat council and ran a Shomer Shabbat parade.[4]
>
> According to the National Jewish Population Survey (2000-2001), about 50% of affiliated Jews (versus 8% of unaffiliated) light Sabbath candles. The first mitzvah in shomer Shabbat home each Friday evening, candle-lighting is performed by 85% of Orthodox, 50% of Conservative and 25% of Reform Jews (Ament 2005:31). [5] In total, Sabbath candle-lighting is practiced by 28% of NJPS survey respondents representative of 4.3 million Jews (United Jewish Communities 2003:7).
>
> **With the increasing observance among Orthodox Jews, the status of shomer Shabbat has become more important.** For example, one of the key questions asked about Orthodox Jewish day schools is whether it allows children who are not shomer Shabbat. [6] The shomer shabbat distinction has been found to be a factor in the social integration of children and families. [7] Sabbath observance is a major priority among Orthodox Jewish families[8] and one scholar contends that shomer Shabbat status is the “functional equivalent” of Orthodox Jewish identity.[9]
>
> Various organizations have accommodated the religious observance requirements of shomer Shabbat Jews. For example, after extensive appeals on their behalf, the U.S. National High School Mock Trial Championship made adjustments for observant Jews from the Torah Academy of Bergen County who were the 2005 state champions representing New Jersey.[10] Similarly, hospitals may allow a shomer Shabbat program for residents in medical training. Many municipalities have cooperated with observant Jews in creating a symbolic boundary for a neighborhood (eruv), in which a shomer Shabbat is permitted to carry or move items that would otherwise be prohibited, such as a baby stroller. In sports, observant Jews may be accommodated along with Seventh Day Adventists. Alternatively, groups like Tzivos Hashem has set up its own shomer Shabbat baseball Little League.
The bolded elements above are very interesting. AFAICT, almost all other major religions in the U.S. are undergoing a steady decrease in “devoutness” (not something I can cite).
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### Author:  [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/115 "2008-12-05T19:40:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Such systems will often have an elevated tank, to keep the water at a useful pressure. When the tank gets too low, the electric pump will automatically kick in to re-fill it. So any given time that you draw water, you know that you’ll be contributing to the pump eventually turning on, but you don’t know that it’ll turn on that particular time that you draw water. Is that good enough?
Cool–this compelled me to call my friend and learn more about their well. You are correct–they have a tank in the basement that triggers the pump when it hits 30 pounds of pressure.
> [@bordelond](#):
>
> What inspired that question is that in Catholicism, before a child’s Confirmation (around 8th grade), they are not on the ultimate hook for most categories of sins.
Hrmm?? This is new to me. Not that I was trying to get away with anything but…
Could you point to references for this?
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/116 "2008-12-05T20:00:26Z")
> [@](#):
>
> For instance, I am assuming that going out in the backyard and tossing around a football for fun is allowed. I am also assuming that if a few neighborhood kids show up, it would be OK for them to have a Saturday-morning football game in the backyard. Good assumptions, or no?
I would expect it to depend on the sport, too. Football (at least some positions on the team, and those are usually blurry in pickup games) might fall afoul of the prohibition on carrying, for instance.
> [@](#):
>
> Hrmm?? This is new to me. Not that I was trying to get away with anything but…
It’s not a question of sins so much as obligations. Young children are not bound by the Lenten observances (fasting on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, no meat on Fridays, and a personal meaningful sacrifice for the rest of Lent), but those are set by specific ages, not Confirmation (which can be at any age from about 8 to 16). The elderly, the sick, pregnant women, and a few other categories of folks are also exempted.
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### Author:  [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/117 "2008-12-05T20:35:30Z")
Ah, I did have to refresh my memory on fasting and abstinence age limits. Being not on the hook for “most categories of sins” is still an odd idea. I see there’s something about “age of reason”, but Confession is given starting at a young age and the examination of conscience includes a range of offenses.
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### Author:  [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/118 "2008-12-05T20:59:50Z")
Just a point of info to all: Over the course of the next 90 minutes or so, various points in the Eastern Time Zone of the USA will be starting Shabbat. I’ll be shutting my computer right after sending this post, and won’t be turning it back on for another 26 hours or so.
Europe and Asia already started a while back, and point west will be coming up soon. So y’all feel free to post what you like, but don’t be surprised about who does the responding. To all, have a Good Shabbos, a Shabbat Shalom, or a Nice Weekend, each as the case may be.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/119 "2008-12-05T21:36:16Z")
Just finished reading the thread. So far, some excellent questions. If you’re a gentile with a question, please ask.
Here’s my contribution. As I understand it once can solve a Rubik’s cube on sabbath. You cannot however take it apart and put it back together again. You also cannot remove the stickers and replace them.
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### Author:  [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/120 "2008-12-05T21:39:03Z")
Now that the Sabbath is upon us, I’ll throw in one more question: Suppose an Orthodox Jew is arrested on the Sabbath (presumably by gentile police officers). Must he refuse to cooperate with being fingerprinted? I.e., to the point where the police have to actually pick up his hands and press them onto the paper?
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