# Using the toilet on Shabbat
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [December 4, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697 "2008-12-04T17:20:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 8
### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/141 "2008-12-08T17:15:39Z")
> [@Musicat](#):
>
> Apparently some believe differently. [B & H Photo Video,](http://www.bhphotovideo.com/) a large Internet site, completely shuts down their WWW order taking from Friday night until Saturday night, even though it is entirely computer-automated. I’ve been told they are Jewish and it is for religious reasons, but I have not confirmed this.
B&H shuts down their ordering system so as to not be doing business on the Sabbath. This has nothing to do with the prohibitions that we have been mentioning. If it did, they’d have to shut down the entire site!
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/142 "2008-12-08T17:22:48Z")
> [@](#):
>
> it’s not uncommon for Orthodox Jews to leave the yarmulke at home when Job hunting.
Oy, as if Job didn’t have enough troubles already, now he’s getting hunted by incognito Jews?
> [@](#):
>
> The first issue you brought up (carrying) doesn’t apply here. The prohibition does not include electronic data as they are not physical objects.
Honestly, if computers were subject to Sabbath laws, I’d imagine that the biggest problem would be with writing. Recording data on a disk is just a very modern form of writing characters.
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/143 "2008-12-08T17:36:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Oy, as if Job didn’t have enough troubles already, now he’s getting hunted by incognito Jews?
Personally, I have yet to have a problem job hunting with a yarmulke.
> [@](#):
>
> Honestly, if computers were subject to Sabbath laws, I’d imagine that the biggest problem would be with writing. Recording data on a disk is just a very modern form of writing characters.
Nope, that’s not an issue at all. Electronic “writing” (whether to disk or on a monitor) is not considered writing at all. If not, then we could never turn off our monitors when God’s name appears on it.
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/144 "2008-12-08T17:55:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> The Sabbath applies to humans, not to machines, so your computer is free to continue carrying, making fires, finishing things, and all the rest.
> [@](#):
>
> B&H shuts down their ordering system so as to not be doing business on the Sabbath.
But “doing business” with a self-contained, Internet order-taking system sounds a lot like _only the computer_ is doing the carrying, making fires, or finishing things. No human need pay any attention to it until the Sabbath is over. That sounds like it would be OK (but I’m not a Rabbi and the appropriate smiley is no longer available), so please explain the apparent lack of consistency if you can.
A non-modern analogy would be a Jewish shopkeeper, whose store is closed on the Sabbath. A regular customer slips a note under the door asking for some gefilte fish, lox and Manischewitz to be delivered the next day. Would the shopkeeper refuse the order because of the time the note was left?
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/145 "2008-12-08T20:44:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Recording data on a disk is just a very modern form of writing characters.
Actually writing on magnetic media is considered by most rabbis to lack a concreteness or permanence. One can erase the Name from magnetic media for example.
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/146 "2008-12-08T20:59:18Z")
Musicat:
> [@](#):
>
> But “doing business” with a self-contained, Internet order-taking system sounds a lot like only the computer is doing the carrying, making fires, or finishing things. No human need pay any attention to it until the Sabbath is over. That sounds like it would be OK (but I’m not a Rabbi and the appropriate smiley is no longer available), so please explain the apparent lack of consistency if you can.
I’m not sure that it is prohibited at all; I think the owners of B & H Photo wish, out of personal piety, to not benefit from profits of Sabbath business, even if it is technically permitted.
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### Author:  [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/147 "2008-12-08T21:05:15Z")
> [@brazil84](#):
>
> As a side note, I will point out that there is a huge amount of anti-semitism in the New York City area. (A lot of the time it’s Jew on Jew antisemitism.)
>
> For example, Jews who wear yarmulkes and who have Yiddish accents often have a hard time getting professional jobs and it’s not uncommon for Orthodox Jews to leave the yarmulke at home when Job hunting.
>
> As another example, there was a huge court battle in Bergen County, New Jersey over whether orthodox Jews could install an eruv. Basically the reform and conservative Jews did not want the orthodox Jews to move in.
I would humbly submit that one Jewish group acting against another Jewish group is not anti-Semitism. Not that I’m sure what to call it, but a good anti-Semite would hate them all. And as I understand it, the kid’s dad was more concerned that he’d be targeted and assaulted if seen wearing a yarmulke. On Columbia’s campus. In Manhattan.
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### Author:  [@schindler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schindler)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/148 "2008-12-08T21:54:58Z")
> [@cmkeller](#):
>
> Musicat:
>
> I’m not sure that it is prohibited at all; I think the owners of B & H Photo wish, out of personal piety, to not benefit from profits of Sabbath business, even if it is technically permitted.
I’m pretty sure you’re right, but it is a hasidic company and their poskim (rabbis who rule on legal issues, for other readers) may have a different opinion from the ones I am familiar with. Perhaps it would involve the issur (prohibition) of making a kinyan (acquisition)?
o well. they just fired a ton of people, so their piety doesn’t seem to be paying off in the short run ☹
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### Author:  [@tzimmerman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tzimmerman)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/149 "2008-12-09T03:38:53Z")
This is the closet thing to debating the number of angels that can fit on the head of a pin that I’ve seen in our modern world.
Being an atheist, I admitedly think all religion is pretty ridiculous. However, it just seems that at some point, an otherwise intelligent person would say to themselves, “why am I subjecting myself to this ritualistic nonsense?” I mean come on, pre-tearing toilet paper?
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### Author:  [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/150 "2008-12-09T03:52:15Z")
> [@tzimmerman](#):
>
> This is the closet thing to debating the number of angels that can fit on the head of a pin that I’ve seen in our modern world.
> Being an atheist, I admitedly think all religion is pretty ridiculous. However, it just seems that at some point, an otherwise intelligent person would say to themselves, “why am I subjecting myself to this ritualistic nonsense?” I mean come on, pre-tearing toilet paper?
Sshhh…we all know that, but you’ll disturb the serious debate. 🙂
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### Author:  [@schindler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schindler)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/151 "2008-12-09T19:00:24Z")
> [@tzimmerman](#):
>
> This is the closet thing to debating the number of angels that can fit on the head of a pin that I’ve seen in our modern world.
> Being an atheist, I admitedly think all religion is pretty ridiculous. However, it just seems that at some point, an otherwise intelligent person would say to themselves, “why am I subjecting myself to this ritualistic nonsense?” I mean come on, pre-tearing toilet paper?
really? and here I thought practical legal questions impacted people’s lives, where metaphysical speculation was by its nature abstract. But then, maybe theism has left me too unsophisticated to avoid subtle (or glaring) distinctions.
pre-tearing toilet paper isn’t the issue at hand. Sabbath observance is. Your objection on the basis of “but, seriously, toilet paper?” reminds me of the tinker-toy objection to the reductionist model of the brain raised by John Searle, if I’m not mistaken. When all is said and done, and the evidence is presented that consciousness and thought can emerge from a sufficiently powerful computer, Searle’s objection amounts to: well then, I can build a computational model of the mind out of an infinite number of beer cans!
to which anyone who has followed the debate thus far goes… so? the point has been all along that the biological framework provided by the human mind isn’t necessarily relevant to the discussion. I don’t care that you’re bothered by the notion of a Giant Alcoholic Brain, I care that consciousness is (from the reductionist perspective) software which can be represented a multitude of ways.
Similarly, when a person has resolved to commit himself or herself to the system that is halakha, the details which arise from strict observance of Sabbath laws do not bother them, whether they regard cooking (not allowed), building a raft to save people (allowed obviously), swatting a mosquito (generally not allowed to kill on the Sabbath), or pre-tearing toilet paper (not allowed to engage in constructive tearing).
Additionally, when one comes to view religion as a framework for ALL of life, and every action has religious significance, pre-tearing toilet paper before the Sabbath is not a “more” religious action than taking your morning piss on Tuesday. And indeed, there is a blessing following that as well, thanking God for providing us with a working “plumbing system”. The religious lifestyle isn’t afraid to embrace profane actions and elevate them to Divine service.
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### Author:  [@Auntbeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Auntbeast)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/152 "2008-12-09T19:01:13Z")
All of these workarounds to me, don’t make sense for this reason. If you are keeping Shabbos, all this pre-planning seems to me, to subvert it. It’s like me telling my child I don’t want her to cross the street, so she books a round the world flight that lands across the street. Technically, she did not cross it, but the end result is the same, she is in fact, on the other side of the road.
Having pre-programmed elevators, lights, pre-torn toilet paper, prepared food, etc, seem to me, to be subverting the will for your own comfort. It is especially odd to have all these things done for/by the most observant, not the least. With the technology we have today, I can see that it would not modify your life at all on the day, just on the day before.
I do understand that the rituals and such are there to remind you of your faith, to keep you close to it, to make it be a part of your day and your life. I don’t question those things or the desire to do them. I just absolutely do not understand the overwhelming ways they are subverted.
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### Author:  [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2008, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/153 "2008-12-09T19:51:26Z")
> [@Auntbeast](#):
>
> All of these workarounds to me, don’t make sense for this reason. If you are keeping Shabbos, all this pre-planning seems to me, to subvert it. It’s like me telling my child I don’t want her to cross the street, so she books a round the world flight that lands across the street. Technically, she did not cross it, but the end result is the same, she is in fact, on the other side of the road.
>
> Having pre-programmed elevators, lights, pre-torn toilet paper, prepared food, etc, seem to me, to be subverting the will for your own comfort. It is especially odd to have all these things done for/by the most observant, not the least. With the technology we have today, I can see that it would not modify your life at all on the day, just on the day before.
>
> I do understand that the rituals and such are there to remind you of your faith, to keep you close to it, to make it be a part of your day and your life. I don’t question those things or the desire to do them. I just absolutely do not understand the overwhelming ways they are subverted.
I didn’t understand it as well, until it was explained to me by an Orthodox friend. As others have mentioned, a good analogy is with a legal system, such as the one we have for taxes. There are certain laws and regulations with regards to paying taxes – based on some circumstances, you have to pay some amount. But you are perfectly entitled to arrange your affairs so as to pay as little as possible.
In the same way, Jewish law requires that certain specific acts be done, or not done. But if there’s a way to follow the letter of the law that is not expressly forbidden, yet seemingly allows one to “get away with it”, then there is nothing wrong with it. If it’s allowed, then it’s allowed for some reason. Otherwise it would also have been forbidden.
Ed
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/154 "2008-12-09T21:11:37Z")
> [@Auntbeast](#):
>
> Having pre-programmed elevators, lights, pre-torn toilet paper, prepared food, etc, seem to me, to be subverting the will for your own comfort.
But you’re assuming the purpose is “don’t have toilet paper” or “sit in the dark.” But that’s not the purpose at all. The point is “don’t tear on Shabbos” and “don’t turn the lights on/off.” So you prepare beforehand. Likewise, we’re not allowed to cook on Shabbos, so we prepare food beforehand. Or is it your contention that God wants us to fast all throughout Shabbos?
It’s not a subversion. You’re simply making the wrong assumptions on what the intended goal is.
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/155 "2008-12-09T22:13:37Z")
Similar to what Zev said (but I thought of it before reading his post) –
Presuming that the purpose of the Sabbath is to rest, and rest is most productive when necessary preparations have been taken care of beforehand, then what’s wrong with making these preparations in advance?
(If one thinks that a prohibition against tearing toilet paper on the Sabbath is too nitpicky, that’s a different discussion. But if one accepts that the religion does prohibit it, then I honestly don’t see why advance preparation would seem like a devious loophole.)
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/156 "2008-12-09T22:39:22Z")
> [@Keeve](#):
>
> Similar to what Zev said (but I thought of it before reading his post) –
>
> Presuming that the purpose of the Sabbath is to rest, and rest is most productive when necessary preparations have been taken care of beforehand, then what’s wrong with making these preparations in advance?
Because you’re making extra work for yourself which is unproductive. If you wan to donate time to a Godly venture then volunteer at a soup kitchen. Going to the bathroom shouldn’t require any mental thought beyond relieving yourself as needed.
The same philosophy applies to every other venture in life. I can’t comment in this forum on the need to consult God on how to poop, which direction to poop or anything else regarding pooping. But planning everything in advance has the potential for wasting time and defeats the concept of taking time off to rest and reflect on life.
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### Author:  [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)
#### Post date: [December 10, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/157 "2008-12-10T00:15:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> Because you’re making extra work for yourself which is unproductive.
How are you making extra work by tearing the toilet paper , cooking the food, etc on Friday before sundown rather than Saturday ? You’ve done the same amount of work, and only shifted the time.
As far as defeating the concept of taking time off to rest - that’s absolutely not true. I’m not Jewish, but every so often, I wish my religion prohibited me from doing anything productive on Sunday. Right now, I use Sundays as well as Saturdays to catch up on whatever housework I haven’t gotten to during the week. I’ve tried to get all the work done on Saturday, but because I’m not forced to, it never quite works out and there is still work left for Sunday. I can’t fully relax when there is work to be done and no reason why I can’t do it. I imagine Zev and his family get same sort of feeling every Sabbath that I only get when I’m away on vacation - sure, there are things that I might like to do that I can’t do because I’m away from home, but who cares ? I won’t spend a single minute cooking,cleaning,laundry,doing laundry or driving one of my kids somewhere. I don’t have any commitments other than spending time with family and friends.
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [December 10, 2008, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/158 "2008-12-10T00:28:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> Because you’re making extra work for yourself which is unproductive. If you wan to donate time to a Godly venture then volunteer at a soup kitchen. Going to the bathroom shouldn’t require any mental thought beyond relieving yourself as needed.
But here you’re assuming the goal is to minimize the amount of work we do throughout the week. But that’s not the case. God told us not to do X, Y and Z on Shabbos. But there is nothing wrong with doing these things in preperation for Shabbos.
In fact, the Talmud puts it very succinctly: He who prepares before the Sabbath will eat on the Sabbath.
In short, the laws of Shabbos only apply to Shabbos itself. There is _nothing wrong_ with preparing for it beforehand. Again, I have to stress, the goal is nto to “simplify going to the bathroom” or to not have toilet paper handy. The goal, very simply, is to avoid performing certain activities on Shabbos. If they can be done before Shabbos in preperation, then it’s fine. It’s not a deception, or a “workaround” or anything else of the sort.
> [@](#):
>
> But planning everything in advance has the potential for wasting time and defeats the concept of taking time off to rest and reflect on life.
Yes, but the time for resting in, specifically, _on Shabbos_. By preparing for it beforehand, we have the time to rest on Shabbos.
Maybe it’s just me, but for the life of me, I can’t figure out why this is a problem for some people.
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)
#### Post date: [December 10, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/159 "2008-12-10T00:38:56Z")
[quote=“zev\_steinhardt, post:158, topic:475697”]
…Maybe it’s just me, but for the life of me, I can’t figure out why this is a problem for some people…
I believe one answer to that is we have become a nation of people who are willing to do just about anything to “get over.” The ends justify the means, and there is never a question about that relationship, nor whether the means or the ends are at all moral or ethical. Just do it. So when people become acquainted with a system that has moral underpinnings, that has a rationale, that is rooted in a literate tradition, that requires people to question and make some decisions based on their understandings of that system, they are nonplussed. They become lost, and find the adherants of those traditions and systems “stupid,” “time wasters,” and “foolish.” I do not believe in god, and would never engage in behaviors that do not make sense to me, but I do understand why people do.
…
well, I know what I was trying to say, anyway
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [December 10, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-toilet-on-shabbat/475697/160 "2008-12-10T00:43:59Z")
[quote=“CC, post:159, topic:475697”]
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#):
>
> …Maybe it’s just me, but for the life of me, I can’t figure out why this is a problem for some people…
>
> I believe one answer to that is we have become a nation of people who are willing to do just about anything to “get over.” The ends justify the means, and there is never a question about that relationship, nor whether the means or the ends are at all moral or ethical. Just do it. So when people become acquainted with a system that has moral underpinnings, that has a rationale, that is rooted in a literate tradition, that requires people to question and make some decisions based on their understandings of that system, they are nonplussed. They become lost, and find the adherants of those traditions and systems “stupid,” “time wasters,” and “foolish.” I do not believe in god, and would never engage in behaviors that do not make sense to me, but I do understand why people do.
> …
> well, I know what I was trying to say, anyway
CC,
That’s an interesting idea, but it doesn’t address the phenomenon I was identifying.
If a person thinks that organized religion is a complete waste of time and wonders why I spend one out of every seven days not working, I can understand that point of view. I don’t agree with it, of course, but I can understand it.
What I can’t understand is why people think that preparing for the Sabbath beforehand constitutes a “workaround” or a “deception;” even after it’s been explained to them that the point is not to do without on Shabbos, but to just not engage in certain activities on Shabbos.
Zev Steinhardt
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