# Using the word "female" as a noun **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 11, 2011, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601 "2011-07-11T07:33:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/41 "2011-07-11T16:42:03Z")
female is a perfectly cromulent word. it carries no baggage for me. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/42 "2011-07-11T16:45:34Z")
In medicine it tends to be used to identify patients when they’re being presented (that is, when a med student or resident is telling the attending physician about them)–“A 36-year-old female”, etc. One of my attendings pointed out that not only are “man” and “woman” one letter shorter than “male” and “female” respectively, they’re also more informative in that they indicate the species. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/43 "2011-07-11T16:49:20Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > First of all, it’s not a question of grammar, but of semantics. > [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > IMO, it’s a lack of social skills thing - Yes, and the social skills which are lacking are those which would otherwise inform a person how much semantics hinges on complex and changing social/political relationships. In this case: > [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > …I go for ridiculousness. “Female women of the opposite sex”… You would (facetiously) be positioning women as “opposite.” In other words, the “default” sex—the “correct” sex–is male. But women aren’t intrinsically “opposite”–that’s a semantic choice the speaker makes. There’s a reason why you hear the term “opposite sex” used much more for women than for men. By the same token, using the term female strips the referent to a purely sexual function. The reduction makes sense for the zoological uses that **MichaelEmouse** refers to, because the sex of an animal plays a greater role in how humans handle and discuss them. It’s obviously highly relevant for breeding activities, and it dominates the interactions of animals more than humans. However, when (non-cop) men refer to a person as a _female_, they’re choosing that term over “_person_, _woman_, _girl_ (and to a lessor degree, _chick_, _broad_, etc.). If it were a man, they would be choosing the term “_male_” over _man_, _boy_, _guy_, or _dude_. Men don’t seem to have any problem using these words about other men, from what I hear. Why is it different? So really, what we’re looking at are the words that they’re avoiding by using the term _female_. Yes, it may be a way to avoid the “problem” of _gir_l vs.\* woman\*. But that doesn’t seem to be a "problem” when men are referring to other men, does it? > [@Zsofia](#): > > I hear it from soldiers too - I assume it’s part of that weird kind of military-speak. It’s called [cop-speak](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=police%20speak), and it’s been going on forever. Every time you put a microphone in front of cop, he or she has to say things like: “The suspect departed the vicinity of the reported incident in a rapid manner,” instead of “The suspect ran away from the scene.” It makes them feel special. (Unfortunately, many service personnel feel obligated to do the same thing as cops.) ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/44 "2011-07-11T16:51:24Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > It’s very much a cold way to talk, but it falls short of “disrespectful, like we’re just the sum of our parts. It’s just not appropriate to talk about us like we’re animals or something”. I have to agree with your assessment. During my first year of grad school, I innocently used the word “females” in place of the word “women.” Two female grad students of the opposite sex chewed me out rather viciously for that, causing me to slink back into my dorm room and sulk. Just a few weeks later, I was planning a camping trip with some other grad students. A woman name Karen told another, “Please come with us, Janet. It would be nice to have another female come along.” Speaking to Karen in private, I said, “Y’know, I was surprised to hear you describe yourself and Janet as ‘females.’ I was told that this was offensive, and two other ladies chewed me out for using that term.” “What?” Karen said. “I used that term all the time. What’s wrong with that?” I later confirmed that Janet had no problem with it either. I think the moral of this story is that the word is NOT inherently offensive. However, it does sound a tad clinical, which could irk some people – and it could grievously offend some folks who are a tad touchy-feely and less inclined to cut the speaker some slack. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/45 "2011-07-11T16:56:35Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Aren’t there people who refer to men as “males”? I’ve definitely heard that term used in that manner. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/46 "2011-07-11T17:00:41Z")
In the English language in general, using adjectives to replace nouns is a way to demean or objectify a group of people. That’s why the trend these days is to use adjectives only as adjectives, and let nouns be nouns. E.g., instead of “a black” it’s better to say “a black man.” Instead of “a gay,” it’s better to say “a gay person.” Likewise with the adjectives _male_ and _female_. It’s always correct and proper to use the noun _women_ to mean women. There’s no reason to substitute any other word. (Some languages have a hangup about using the word _woman_ and insist on saying _lady_, as though _woman_ is some kind of insult. English is not one of those languages.) Just say “women” when you mean women. You can’t go wrong that way. If you refer to a group of both women and girls, just say “women and girls.” Easy. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/47 "2011-07-11T17:01:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I consider “ladies” to be old-fashioned and condescending except when used by a master of ceremonies in the phrase “ladies and gentlemen.” Addressing people in person as “ladies” is tacky. What term of address for a group of women do you find acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![D.Fenestrator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aca169/32.png) [@D.Fenestrator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D.Fenestrator)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/48 "2011-07-11T17:09:29Z")
I used to know someone, a man over 30, who would refer to men as “males” (as in “a male would do it this way”) and all women as “girls”. It drove me nuts, and I have never met anyone else who speaks this way. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/49 "2011-07-11T17:11:12Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > What term of address for a group of women do you find acceptable? I encounter few if any situations in which such a term of address is required. If I’m addressing a group formally, I would go with an opening that didn’t require a term of address – “Hello,” “welcome,” “I’m so pleased to see so many people interested in this discussion,” etc., and then just launch into it. In informal situations, if you need to catch their attention, then just “hi” or “heya.” If you put a gun to my head, I might go with “folks” or “people,” but certainly not anything gender-specific. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/50 "2011-07-11T17:12:37Z")
Female and male grate on my teeth something fierce. Luckily our style guide at work enforces using woman and man, so I get to yell at people for using female/male. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I consider “ladies” to be old-fashioned and condescending except when used by a master of ceremonies in the phrase “ladies and gentlemen.” Addressing people in person as “ladies” is tacky. You have to stretch the L out to use it properly. The longer you stretch it, the more polite it is. “Lllllllllllladies.” ---
**Author:** ![Surly\_Chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Surly\_Chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surly_Chick)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/51 "2011-07-11T17:26:48Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Wow, I had no idea that chicks hated that. I don’t. I never really thought about it before and far be it for me to let a reason to be offended slip by. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/52 "2011-07-11T17:28:36Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Speaking to Karen in private, I said, “Y’know, I was surprised to hear you describe yourself and Janet as ‘females.’ I was told that this was offensive, and two other ladies chewed me out for using that term.” So I guess you didn’t understand that, regarding semantics, _ **context is everything** _. Actually, regarding ALL aspects of language. You really can’t understand language at all if you don’t take context into consideration. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/53 "2011-07-11T17:39:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I consider “ladies” to be old-fashioned and condescending except when used by a master of ceremonies in the phrase “ladies and gentlemen.” Addressing people in person as “ladies” is tacky. The funny thing is that it seems that the other place you’re sure to hear “lady” or “gentleman” is from law enforcement – just like “male” or “female” (noun). As in “We found the gentleman huddled under the deck with a glassine bag of a white crystalline substance two metres away…” or “And then the lady attempted to strike me…” I’m working as a court interpreter and I hear this all the time. (Oddly, the other thing I’ve noticed is that “lady” seems to have become the feminine of “dude.” No, not just in that song.) We seem to use the words “lady” and “gentleman” a lot more around here because French uses the words “le monsieur” and “la dame” a lot more than English usually uses the corresponding words (as well as “monsieur” and “madame” in the third person: “madame m’a indiqué que…”) This is another thing I hear in court all the time, although you also hear it in other parts of life, and it can be a touch complicated to translate. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/54 "2011-07-11T17:39:47Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > So I guess you didn’t understand that, regarding semantics, _ **context is everything** _. Actually, regarding ALL aspects of language. You really can’t understand language at all if you don’t take context into consideration. Take it easy, friend. No need to get upset. I think this thread shows that different people have different views on this topic. There’s no need to condescend toward someone for holding a different viewpoint, or perhaps for failing to perfectly understand where other people are coming from. Perhaps you can help me out. How does that make a difference in this particular situation? I do agree that context can sometimes determine if a term is offensive or not, but can you be more specific? Also, please bear in mind that both Karen and Janet declared that the term is simply harmless. They both said that it’s nothing to get offended over. This would seem to bely the claim that it’s simply a matter of context. Now, I’m not saying that they’re correct and that you’re flat out wrong. What I am saying is that some people – both men and women – do view the term as non-offensive, though perhaps a bit clinical. Other people consider it to be somewhat irksome, and others consider it to be outright offensive and utterly dehumanizing. Personally, I think that this final category is a bit extreme, but if others want to contend with that opinion, they’re welcome to do so. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/55 "2011-07-11T17:44:25Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > In this case: You would (facetiously) be positioning women as “opposite.” In other words, the “default” sex—the “correct” sex–is male. But women aren’t intrinsically “opposite”–that’s a semantic choice the speaker makes. There’s a reason why you hear the term “opposite sex” used much more for women than for men. There’s even a (very) old-fashioned expression for women in French: _le sexe_. Not even the “opposite” sex or the “fairer” sex or whatever; just the sex. Anyway, I’ve related the story that my mom used to work in a hospital where the washrooms were labeled (apparently in an attempt at medical precision) as MALE and FEMALE. One imagined the male washrooms and the female washrooms getting together and having a litter of washroom young. (“And now the male washroom begins its mating display!”) ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/56 "2011-07-11T17:49:03Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > So I guess you didn’t understand that, regarding semantics, _ **context is everything** _. Actually, regarding ALL aspects of language. You really can’t understand language at all if you don’t take context into consideration. True, context matters when it comes to understanding whether the semantics are clinical or zoological. Usually, when you hear someone use the terms “male” or “female”, the context and general personnality and demeanor of that person should clue you in on whether the person was using clinical/cold language or thinking of men/women in primarily zoological terms. If it’s the former, I don’t see what there is to complain about; it’s a style difference, some people are more formal in the way they talk, others less so. If it’s the latter, go ahead and deconstruct the hegemonic discourse of the bourgeois patriarchy. When someone says something which can be interpreted as being offensive or innocuous, I prefer to interpret it generously unless there is a reason to think it should be interpreted as being offensive. Any hint as to why “female” was considered offensive in the first instance related by JThunder but not the latter, what in the context could have made those two instances different? ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/57 "2011-07-11T18:02:10Z")
The problem here is there is no female equivalent of “guy”. For example, how would you change the gender in this sentence without changing its meaning: “Remember that guy I met yesterday?” “Gal” wouldn’t work. We’re left with either “girl” or “woman”, both of which aren’t as neutral as “guy”. I think “female” is an attempt to find a word for females as neutral as “guy” is for guys. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/58 "2011-07-11T18:14:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > When I’m talking to my male friends, any woman who is roughly our age or younger is a “girl.” It’s the counterpart to “guy.” This is very much how I use those terms. In a social setting, anyone my age or younger is a guy, anyone older is a man. Anyone much younger is a boy or a kid. I think I’d say technically gal should be the equivalent of guy, but it isn’t really used, so girl fills that roll. That said, though I’m not personally bothered by “male” or “female”, I don’t use them precisely because they feel distant and clinical and possible even slightly dehumanizing. I’ve also noticed a high correlation between the usage of those terms and some kind of a blanket statement. It’s sort of like they know it’s sexist to say all men do something, but somehow it’s not sexist to say males do something. OTOH, even more interesting is that when my female friends vent to me about men, they tend to use “male”, almost as if I’m excluded because those “males” are sub-human and I’m not. Though, personally, if I’m going to bash a whole gender, I’ll go ahead and say men or women. Then again, maybe part of the reason it seems weird is because it’s formal. I much prefer “guys” and “girls” precisely because it’s informal and puts us on the same level. Maybe some people don’t necessarily feel like saying woman is appropriate because they think of a woman as someone older, but they also don’t really want to say girl, because she’s not a child, and lady has other connotations, so female just fills that void. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/59 "2011-07-11T18:30:24Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Take it easy, friend. No need to get upset. I think this thread shows that different people have different views on this topic. There’s no need to condescend toward someone for holding a different viewpoint, or perhaps for failing to perfectly understand where other people are coming from. > > Perhaps you can help me out. How does that make a difference in this particular situation? I do agree that context can sometimes determine if a term is offensive or not, but can you be more specific? Sorry, not upset at all, particularly since you obviously are more observant about language than the average person. I was more referring to a common idea that language holds monolithic values apart from its use. The importance of context primarily involves: 1) who is speaking, 2) to whom the person is speaking, 3) where and when they are speaking, 4) the relationship between them (common background/experience, respective motivations, etc.), and 4) who is “overhearing” the speech. The connotation of a single word can be very different when women use it among themselves, as opposed to when a man uses it–especially with other men alone, but also when speaking to only women. > [@JThunder](#): > > Also, please bear in mind that both Karen and Janet declared that the term is simply harmless. They both said that it’s nothing to get offended over. This would seem to bely the claim that it’s simply a matter of context. How so? They weren’t party to the originally conversation. Moreover, when people are asked to characterize their own speech (or the speech of others), they often overlook things or re-frame things for other purposes (face-saving, self-image, politeness or whatever). Obviously I can’t say that’s the case here, but in my line of work we don’t rely on how people view their own speech to really figure out what’s going on. We record actual speech (and physical interaction) as it is happening, and transcribe it in minute detail. We definitely don’t rely on a person’s memory of a conversation, or an interpretation of someone else’s speech twice removed. Not that that’s necessarily what happened here–and of course there’s the whole additional, complicating layer of speech act (namely, metadiscourse) when someone asserts that something you just said was “offensive.” > [@JThunder](#): > > …I am saying is that some people – both men and women – do view the term as non-offensive, though perhaps a bit clinical. Other people consider it to be somewhat irksome, and others consider it to be outright offensive and utterly dehumanizing. Exactly. No utterance functions in the same static way in all circumstances. The same word–even spoken by the same person–can work in entirely different ways, depending on the context. Moreover, the cultural values of language are always in flux, because in every instance of language use, we re-inject our values into it–according to the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/60 "2011-07-11T18:39:59Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > in my line of work we don’t rely on how people view their own speech to really figure out what’s going on. . What’s your line of work? Parsing what other people say and determining what’s going on is the sort of thing that could be useful to a fair few people, especially me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601.md?page=4)