# Using the word "female" as a noun **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 11, 2011, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601 "2011-07-11T07:33:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/81 "2011-07-12T03:13:23Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > It does not work at all as a counterpart to “guys”. I think “girl” works fine when you’re talking about intimate relationships. If you’re talking about a dating partner, I can’t imagine anyone caring if you referred to her as a “girl you’re dating”. I mean, we already have the term girlfriend, right? Similiarly, “girls night out” or “girls just wanna have fun” never raises an eyebrow. They fit in with the same kind of lightheartness as “the boys are back in town” or “boys will be boys” do. I think the problem comes in when you bring this kind of language into the workplace or when you’re addressing a stranger that way outside of certain contexts. “Who took the last watermelon?” “The girl over there.” If I’m the “girl” being referenced, my 33-year old self will bristle at the lack of respect implied. “Women” might sound too mature and serious for the situation, but “girl” sounds a lot worse to my ears. So if given a choice I’d rather be called a “woman” or “lady”. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/82 "2011-07-12T03:29:38Z")
Forget to add this: “Lady” when said the right way, has a dude-like equivalency to it. “Lighten up, lady!” is to women as to “Chillax, dude” is to men. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/83 "2011-07-12T03:42:47Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > This thread is a great example of why I love the Dope. Topics like this can be intelligently discussed, and with respect for differing opinions. > > I would like to reiterate that while this bothers me to some degree, I wouldn’t characterize it as offensive. I hope when JThunder referred to some of us finding it “outrightly offensive and dehumanizing” he wasn’t thinking that’s my feeling on the matter. > " No, not at all. **Ascenray** used the term “dehumanizing.” I also mentioned two female grad students who didn’t specifically use that term, but who made it clear that they considered it to be deeply insulting. Oh, and **gallows fodder** … I also mentioned one female grad student who said that she frequently referred to people of her gender as “females.” BTW, while I agree with **Indygrrl** that discussions like this can be great, I also think that there are a great many times when these topics devolve into ridiculous mudslinging. Typically, that occurs when a few respondents read carelessly and shoot from the hip, rather than making an attempt to understand the OP or subsequent responses. That does happen a lot. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/84 "2011-07-12T03:45:40Z")
> [@gallows\_fodder](#): > > No, I wouldn’t feel quite the same level of suspicion (or distaste or what-have-you), but I’d think a woman saying “I met some females today…” was still indicating that she was distancing herself psychologically from the women she was talking about (unless she was a cop, doctor, soldier, etc.). Just to elaborate on my previous point… remember that my grad school friend was saying, “Come on, Janet. Go camping with us. It’d be nice to have another female on this trip.” Clearly, in that situation, the woman wasn’t trying to psychologically distance herself from anyone. ---
**Author:** ![vix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a88e4f/32.png) [@vix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vix)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/85 "2011-07-12T04:16:39Z")
I don’t love the use of “female” as described in the OP, but it doesn’t offend me. I started hearing it after moving to South Florida. A woman I used to work with at a community college used it all the time. She was African-American, college-educated, late 30s, southern. The president of the college, who was also black and southern, used it too. I assumed it was either a southern thing or a black thing, (since I am white and from the north eastern US, and had never heard it before). I know I’ve heard others use it here, too. Never in an offensive (to me) way, just as an identification, in the same way I’d say “woman” or “women”. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/86 "2011-07-12T04:25:50Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I think “girl” works fine when you’re talking about intimate relationships. If you’re talking about a dating partner, I can’t imagine anyone caring if you referred to her as a “girl you’re dating”. I mean, we already have the term girlfriend, right? > > Similiarly, “girls night out” or “girls just wanna have fun” never raises an eyebrow. They fit in with the same kind of lightheartness as “the boys are back in town” or “boys will be boys” do. > > I think the problem comes in when you bring this kind of language into the workplace or when you’re addressing a stranger that way outside of certain contexts. > > “Who took the last watermelon?” > “The girl over there.” > > If I’m the “girl” being referenced, my 33-year old self will bristle at the lack of respect implied. “Women” might sound too mature and serious for the situation, but “girl” sounds a lot worse to my ears. So if given a choice I’d rather be called a “woman” or “lady”. Well said. This sums up my feelings about it. It feels like, in discussions like this, some get the impression that women (or og forbid, feminists) are looking for reasons to get offended, as if our desire for language that is both respectful and accurate is nitpicky and petty. But words carry a lot of meaning, and when we already feel like we aren’t being taken seriously at times, or getting the respect we feel we deserve, hearing a man refer to us in that way is just one more thing that feels like a slight. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/87 "2011-07-12T04:40:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Forget to add this: > > “Lady” when said the right way, has a dude-like equivalency to it. > > “Lighten up, lady!” is to women as to “Chillax, dude” is to men. That, of course, is a _term of address_, (rather than a noun), such as _ma’am_ or _sir_. _Dude_–as a term of address–is used with women as well now. Moreover, _lady_, as a substantive, is often old-fashioned or humorous. And, of course, it’s how children refer to adult women. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/88 "2011-07-12T05:09:56Z")
> [@gallows\_fodder](#): > > It’s a red flag for me. In my experience, there are two groups of people who use “female” as a noun a lot: law enforcement officers (who also use “male” as a noun equally as often) and people with fucked up ideas about women. This is it in a nutshell for me. ---
**Author:** ![AnalogSignal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/analogsignal/32/1085_2.png) [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/89 "2011-07-12T05:12:24Z")
> [@vix](#): > > The president of the college, who was also black and southern, used it too. I assumed it was either a southern thing or a black thing I heard it pretty often in rap music in the 80s. I don’t listen to rap anymore so I don’t know if it has fallen out of favor. For example, there are lots of “females” in this clip of the The World’s Famous Supreme Team radio show (which was included on Malcolm McLaren’s Duck Rock CD): [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gVhDOywNhWc/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AH-BIAC4AOKAgwIABABGD8gQyh_MA8=&rs=AOn4CLC93df_1FV3X6rDJP7-bg4wKNVNHw "The World's Famous Supreme Team Duck Rock") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVhDOywNhWc) “Females” at 0:39, 1:46, 1:54, 2:55, 3:48, 3:53, and 5:30. It sounds jarring to my ears but they are dropping the F-bomb so casually it must have been completely normal to these DJs. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/90 "2011-07-12T08:20:11Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Yeah, I met this woman yesterday (she must be a ball breaker) What? I don’t understand this. Could you explain it further, please? After some reflection I agree that “ladies” has become a common counterpart to “guys” - I wouldn’t blink twice at hearing “we’re having a ladies’ night out”, for example. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/91 "2011-07-12T08:45:47Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > Is it grammatically correct to ask, “How many men nurses do you have in your unit?” > > If so, doesn’t, “How many male nurses do you have in your unit?” sound less awkward? Open and shut case, Johnson. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/92 "2011-07-12T10:00:23Z")
Female, woman, girl. It wouldn’t occur to me to be offended or bothered by any of those. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/93 "2011-07-12T10:22:17Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > I don’t know, “woman” sounds perfectly normal in that sentence. “Female” makes me think you’re talking about a dog. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t get why “woman” seems to be so awkward for a lot of people. A while ago, I starting culling “girl” from my speech (unless I’m talking to a friend), and using “woman” in place of it, and it’s really not _that_ hard. I agree totally. > [@](#): > > But there are times that “woman” doesn’t quite fit. I find that “lady” works pretty well when “woman” sounds too serious and adult. 😕 I don’t get why _woman_ wouldn’t ever fit, unless her age fell short of adulthood. Sounds like what people are questing for is a neutral connotation, with _guy_ held up as the gold standard of neutral connotation. What weirds me out is why _man_ and _woman_, which I’d expect to be the neutral terms, get laden with heavy connotations that make people feel these words are sometimes unsuitable. I see a lot of rejection of connotations of adulthood. Are we talking about children or adults? Is adulthood so scary that it becomes taboo in speech—even for adults? I’m just not getting it. The general rule is not to use adjectives in place of nouns for people. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/94 "2011-07-12T10:42:40Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Just to elaborate on my previous point… remember that my grad school friend was saying, “Come on, Janet. Go camping with us. It’d be nice to have another female on this trip.” Clearly, in that situation, the woman wasn’t trying to psychologically distance herself from anyone. But she was. Her only concern was the gender balance of the trip. Janet wasn’t being invited because of what she would bring to the trip as a person. She was invited to add another body to the ladies’ team. Any woman would could fill the position. It makes some sense in a gender-ratio situation. But in most situations it is impersonal to the point of being objectifying. Would you use “female,” for a ten year old girl or an 80 year old woman? Probably not. It implies “woman of sexual availability.” I’ll leave it to the imagination why a clinical term for that is grating. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/95 "2011-07-12T10:52:47Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > What? I don’t understand this. Could you explain it further, please? > > After some reflection I agree that “ladies” has become a common counterpart to “guys” - I wouldn’t blink twice at hearing “we’re having a ladies’ night out”, for example. When you say woman, you’re talking serious business. It’s a word with gravitas. You don’t chuck it in casual conversation. You’re talking about a hardass negotiator, a cop that’s giving you a ticket, someone in authority. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/96 "2011-07-12T11:20:48Z")
Could you explain why? I don’t really understand why it has connotations of gravitas and authority. It seems very neutral to me. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/97 "2011-07-12T11:22:32Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > When you say woman, you’re talking serious business. It’s a word with gravitas. You don’t chuck it in casual conversation. You’re talking about a hardass negotiator, a cop that’s giving you a ticket, someone in authority. Is it such a bad thing for a woman to have power and authority? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/98 "2011-07-12T11:36:25Z")
Wrongly or rightly (and I’m leaning towards wrongly…but this is language we’re talking about), “woman” often conjures up images of an older person. This is probably because we are so conditioned to referring to anyone that isn’t a sensible shoe-wearin matron as a girl. So sometimes using “woman” feels a little off. Irrespective of the matron thing, sometimes “woman” is off exactly the same way that “man” is off, even though neither is technically wrong. Usually the awkwardness comes in when the person being referenced in younger or around the same age as the speaker. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/99 "2011-07-12T11:37:42Z")
It’s really the same reason that “man” seems out of place in a casual context. Casually speaking, a male peer is a “guy.” It would feel wrong to refer to someone in such contexts as a “man.” It emphasizes the person’s non-peer qualities. Same with “woman.” ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601/100 "2011-07-12T11:38:08Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > “Who took the last watermelon?” > “The girl over there.” > > If I’m the “girl” being referenced, my 33-year old self will bristle at the lack of respect implied. This is a context in which age actually does matter, for both genders. You are essentially asked to describe the person who took the last watermelon. You might say “that elderly man over there with the long beard” or “that little boy over there with the backwards cap” or “that woman over there in the fedora.” Describing a 33-year-old as a “girl” in that context is just bad description. What I find awkward is the idea that age is such a universally important characteristic for only one half of humanity, that no matter what the context every time we speak of them we must emphasize their age. > [@Johanna](#): > > I don’t get why _woman_ wouldn’t ever fit, unless her age fell short of adulthood. Perhaps you don’t know her age. Perhaps you are speaking about a group of mixed ages. Perhaps you are making a general statement that is not restricted by age group. Perhaps you are speaking of multiple events, which occurred when she was multiple different ages. Perhaps you just don’t think it is necessary or appropriate to emphasize age in the context you are speaking in. Same reason you wouldn’t use “man” in that context either. This is not an exhaustive list. Admittedly, “girls” isn’t a great counterpart to “guys” due to its alternate meaning. But as I said earlier, wouldn’t you be much more uncomfortable calling a 10-year-old a “woman” than including an adult when you “go out with the girls”? If so, isn’t it far more sensible for “girls” to perform this double duty than for “women” to do so? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-the-word-female-as-a-noun/588601.md?page=6)