# Using Titles as Nouns in Latin **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-titles-as-nouns-in-latin/517184 "2009-11-11T15:05:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-titles-as-nouns-in-latin/517184/1 "2009-11-11T15:05:32Z")
Recently, some friends of mine and I were discussing a possible vocabulary for playing D&D in Latin. I suggested that the names of spells would have to be declinable if you’re going to have a ‘scroll of’ or ‘potion of’ that spell. It was pointed out to me that of course in English you don’t have to do this. You can just take the name as it is and use it as a noun. Of course, in English, this generally doesn’t make much of a difference – there aren’t many accusative markers left in the language. But we don’t listen to _The Whom_. We don’t watch _Dr. Whom_. What is the rule in Latin for just using a title in as if it were an indeclinable noun? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-titles-as-nouns-in-latin/517184/2 "2009-11-11T15:29:38Z")
> [@Johnny Angel](#): > > What is the rule in Latin for just using a title in as if it were an indeclinable noun? Subject to correction by more knowledgeable Latinists, I think the rule is “You can’t do that there here”. Latin usage typically declines titles and even proper names, as well as common nouns, according to their grammatical role in the sentence. For instance, the name of the mathematician Leonhard Euler is attested not only in the usual nominative form “Leonhardus Eulerus” but also in the ablative case (“auctore Leonhardo Eulero”, “by the author Leonhard Euler”), as well as in the genitive case (“Leonhardi Euleri Opera postuma”, “the posthumous works of Leonhard Euler”) and the accusative (“in epistula ad Leonhardum Eulerum scripsit”, “he wrote in a letter to Leonhard Euler”). AFAICT, in Latin, if you want to talk about somebody by name or by title, you need to be able to decline them properly. Even if you’re using a name or title borrowed from a foreign language, you would tack on some approximation of a Latin case ending to preserve grammatical agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-titles-as-nouns-in-latin/517184/3 "2009-11-11T15:51:01Z")
Title can have two meanings. _Herodes Antipas Rex Iudaeorum_ (Herod Antipas King of the Jews) would take a genitive (Herodis … Regis…), an accusative (Herodem… Regem…), etc. In this case, by “title” you are meaning formal epithet denoting sociopolitical role, used in apposition to the name, and delining in parallel with it. But “title” can also mean “the name given by its creator to a work of art, official document, etc.” as in “Caesar’s _De Bello Gallico_” or “the Papal bull _Ineffabilis Deus_”. And it’s my understqaqnding that phrases used as titles are regarded as indeclinable as regards their role in a sentence (though internal declension may exist, as in “the writ _Quo Warranto_”). I suspect this would also be true with a Latin or pseudoLatin phrase adopted as a D&D or Hogwartian spell. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-titles-as-nouns-in-latin/517184/4 "2009-11-11T16:36:06Z")
Yes, sorry. I do mean title in the sense of the name of a work, not as an honorific. I’m not actually talking about borrowing Latin to be used in a D&D game played in English. In that case, I’d just use the nominative. I’m talking about playing the entire game in Latin. Can you say: Pōtiō Vīrēs Gigantis where ‘Vīrēs Givantis’ is the name of the spell, or do you have to say: Pōtiō Vīrium Gigantis Suppose the spell name was an imperative, like ‘Morere’. Can you say “Cantō ‘Morere’.” as if the imperative were a noun? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-titles-as-nouns-in-latin/517184/5 "2009-11-11T19:26:15Z")
Oh yes, now I see what you mean (thanks **Poly** ). Well, I think the answer might be that book titles, for example, in Latin generally have the word “book” right in them, like _Liber vaccae_ (“Book of the Cow”) or _Liber de caelo et mundo_ (“Book about the heavens and the earth”). So generally, you would leave most of the title in the genitive or ablative or whatever it happens to be, and just decline the governing noun “liber” appropriately. > [@Johnny Angel](#): > > Can you say: > > Pōtiō Vīrēs Gigantis > > where ‘Vīrēs Givantis’ is the name of the spell, or do you have to say: > > Pōtiō Vīrium Gigantis The latter sounds much closer to correct, AFAICT. You will just need to construct all your spell, potion, etc. names so that they include the proper governing noun. (If the potion you mention is for enlarging people, wouldn’t you want a gerundive in there instead of a genitive phrase like “virium gigantum”?) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-titles-as-nouns-in-latin/517184/6 "2009-11-11T20:00:22Z")
> [@](#): > > So generally, you would leave most of the title in the genitive or ablative or whatever it happens to be, and just decline the governing noun “liber” appropriately. This much I had already worked out. What I’m asking is the further question of what you do when that won’t do? If a work is called _Īnsomnis in Seattlum_, do you really need to use the passive voice to say you’re watching it without inflecting the title? > [@](#): > > (If the potion you mention is for enlarging people, wouldn’t you want a gerundive in there instead of a genitive phrase like “virium gigantum”?) The term ‘Giant Strength’ could be read that way, except that if you play D&D you know the spell gives the recipient the strength of a creature called a ‘giant.’ For Potion of Healing, I like a gerund such as Pōtiō Medendō. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-titles-as-nouns-in-latin/517184/7 "2009-11-11T21:55:17Z")
> [@Johnny Angel](#): > > If a work is called Īnsomnis in Seattlum, do you really need to use the passive voice to say you’re watching it without inflecting the title? No, you need to give it a correct Latin title like _Taenia de Insomnia in Seattla_ (or whatever the ablative ending of “Seattle” ought to be), and then you can say you’re watching _Taeniam de Insomnia in Seattla_. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-titles-as-nouns-in-latin/517184/8 "2009-11-11T23:29:24Z")
In Russian, you decline everything, even foreign-language words. (A fun pursuit is talking in what is essentially English, but in a heavy Russian accent with all the words declined.) Yet, book titles are not declined. But you have to decline something, so you always say “book” first, followed by the title. If you don’t decline anything, you have a construction that is broken, because it has lost its semantics. All in all, seems identical to the Latin. Having said all that, actually not declining your spell name would perhaps work. You’ll come out with a slightly different phrase, though. Instead of {potion of spell “spell title”} you can simply have {potion “potion title”}. Just stick a declinable word immediately before the title, and you’re good. > [@Johnny\_Angel](#): > > Of course, in English, this generally doesn’t make much of a difference – there aren’t many accusative markers left in the language. But we don’t listen to _The Whom_. We don’t watch _Dr. Whom_. Actually, English does decline these words. “The Who’s early career…” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-titles-as-nouns-in-latin/517184/9 "2009-11-12T01:47:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No, you need to give it a correct Latin title like _Taenia de Insomnia in Seattla_ (or whatever the ablative ending of “Seattle” ought to be), and then you can say you’re watching _Taeniam de Insomnia in Seattla_. Perusing Vicapaedia, it looks like they sometimes present the title undeclined and append “appelatur”. But in other cases they decline it, though it’ll be in italics. The names of the spells in D&D were not chosen under a concern for such issues, so translating them should focus on finding a natively Latin way of expressing the same thing, which includes making sure it’s obvious which words are the fulcrum of the declension. > [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > In Russian, you decline everything, even foreign-language words. (A fun pursuit is talking in what is essentially English, but in a heavy Russian accent with all the words declined.) Gosh, that does sound like fun. I’m only sort of kidding. But not every word, surely. If you have a noun in the nominative followed by say a genitive, you only need to decline the nominative part, right? > [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > Actually, English does decline these words. “The Who’s early career…” D’oh! You’ve got me there. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-titles-as-nouns-in-latin/517184/10 "2009-11-12T18:07:39Z")
> [@Johnny\_Angel](#): > > D’oh! You’ve got me there. Well, it’s still a matter of dispute whether the -'s is a real declension, or just a clitic. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-titles-as-nouns-in-latin/517184/11 "2009-11-12T22:41:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > AFAICT, in Latin, if you want to talk about somebody by name or by title, you need to be able to decline them properly. Even if you’re using a name or title borrowed from a foreign language, you would tack on some approximation of a Latin case ending to preserve grammatical agreement. The Vulgate Bible adds case endings to some names, but not to others. I randomly chose [I Samuel](http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/Vulgate/1_Samuel.html) and paged through it for a few minutes. The names David, Goliath, and Saul appear undeclined throughout. I spotted a few instances where Ionathan had case endings, though. Haven’t found a pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-titles-as-nouns-in-latin/517184/12 "2009-11-12T23:29:44Z")
> [@Johnny\_Angel](#): > > Perusing Vicapaedia, it looks like they sometimes present the title undeclined and append “appelatur”. But in other cases they decline it, though it’ll be in italics. Yeah, in my rambling I didn’t explain this. You _either_ put a noun in front to decline, or you can sometimes decline the title itself. It can’t be a complex or little-known title, as doing this is sort of a hack/informal shorthand.