# Using "tribe" to describe groupings. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 17, 2014, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976 "2014-06-17T09:48:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976/21 "2014-06-17T19:24:14Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It is not of necessity to be able to join a tribe across any culture where the concept occurs, and for some ethnic ideas it is possible. you are making distinctions that are not supportable. Okay, which ethnic group can you convert to? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976/22 "2014-06-17T19:33:12Z")
What a strange question that does not follow logically. It is not typical to convert to things that are not religions, no? Do you convert to nationality too in America? It is again the case you mix different ideas and different categories ad hoc. I understand well you like the idea of tribe for Jews. Very nice, but it is not an argument that is strong against the term ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976/23 "2014-06-17T19:35:32Z")
Whereas I frequently recall the Yoruba and the Ibos referred to as “tribes”, especially back during the Biafran/Nigerian civil war; whether by British/western ignorance, or arrogance, deliberate insult, or stupidity… and the Nigerian I knew was not complaining about a simple definitional distinction, but rather the implied racial slur of equating Nigerians with primitive “tribes”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976/24 "2014-06-17T19:43:08Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > What a strange question that does not follow logically. > > It is not typical to convert to things that are not religions, no? Do you convert to nationality too in America? > > It is again the case you mix different ideas and different categories ad hoc. I understand well you like the idea of tribe for Jews. Very nice, but it is not an argument that is strong against the term ethnicity. I understood your point to be that the distinction I was making doesn’t work because some ethnic groups share one of the characteristics that I claim distinguishes tribes from ethnicities - namely, that by an act of will and acceptance (“conversion”), a person can change into or out of that group. BTW, it is also something that distinguishes an ethnicity from a nationality - you can change your nationality simply by filling out the right paperwork. You cannot change your “ethicity” in this manner. If I am Canadian I can become American, just by gaining citizenship. If I was Romanian by ancestry, I could not become African-American or ethnically Irish so easily. If this is your point, I am simply asking you to identify and undoubted ethnicity that, as you claim, shares that characteristic. In short, that you support your position with evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976/25 "2014-06-17T19:45:05Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Whereas I frequently recall the Yoruba and the Ibos referred to as “tribes”, especially back during the Biafran/Nigerian civil war; whether by British/western ignorance, or arrogance, deliberate insult, or stupidity… and the Nigerian I knew was not complaining about a simple definitional distinction, but rather the implied racial slur of equating Nigerians with primitive “tribes”. I do not understand what it is that is hard to understand that the question of ‘simple definitional distinction’ is the racial slur. I am trying to be clear. The insult is to call something Africa a tribe that would never be called a tribe outside of Africa. You do not call the Khmer a tribe. You do not call the Vietnamese a tribe. What is so often called a tribe in Africa was never any such thing, but rather large language groupings that might have many actual tribes as component. It is not the word tribe itself that is insulting, for it must not be objected to if it were the accurate word. It is insulting to apply the word incorrectly to something elsewhere that would never be called that. It is mistaken political correctness in language to think it is just this word tribe and to not understand at all the root of objection to the word. It is the very inaccuracy in the definition that is the insult. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976/26 "2014-06-17T19:51:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > … > If this is your point, I am simply asking you to identify and undoubted ethnicity that, as you claim, shares that characteristic. In short, that you support your position with evidence. You have doubts of the mutuation of ethnicity? This is strange. We find people becoming Arab whose parents or whose grandparents were Chleuh or in the Sudan, whose grandparents were Nuba. It is quite common for smaller groups to "become Wolof’ when they had been Malinké before, or to become Bambara… It usual within limits to be French by ethnicity within some parameters so that no one calls Sarkozy an ethnic hungarian… Indeed in most French culture the culture of hyphenation of ethnicity is strange. It is more strange to have rigidities and I think you confuse American racialism in your consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976/27 "2014-06-17T20:36:40Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > You have doubts of the mutuation of ethnicity? This is strange. No, and that is not what I am asking. > [@](#): > > We find people becoming Arab whose parents or whose grandparents were Chleuh or in the Sudan, whose grandparents were Nuba. It is quite common for smaller groups to "become Wolof’ when they had been Malinké before, or to become Bambara… It usual within limits to be French by ethnicity within some parameters so that no one calls Sarkozy an ethnic hungarian… Indeed in most French culture the culture of hyphenation of ethnicity is strange. > > It is more strange to have rigidities and I think you confuse American racialism in your consideration. I have no doubts that people over time can mutate into new ethnicities, or rather, that their families can over generations, like you say. What I am asking, instead, is whether there are any ethnicities in which someone can change ethnicity as quickly and willfully as one can change nationality - that is, on day 1 be X ethnicity, and through going through some process akin to conversion (or, for nationalities, citizenship application), be Y ethnicity on day 2. So far, I have asked for some evidence of this, and so far, you have provided none. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976/28 "2014-06-17T20:48:45Z")
What hard evidence is to provide, do you want an interview. and in your English? It happens constantly in the Maghreb, one changes ethnic identify by situation. Any situation where there is the cross over of the relgiion with the religious identity has effects no different. It is clear the idea of ethnicity has no barriers as you propose it, and you have not presented other evidences, but your own assertion on how this works either. A converted person to Judiasm being considered widely as also a Jew ethnically, present your evidence of this consideration and make the difference clear between the religious application and the ethnic… ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976/29 "2014-06-17T21:07:51Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > What hard evidence is to provide, do you want an interview. and in your English? It happens constantly in the Maghreb, one changes ethnic identify by situation. Any situation where there is the cross over of the relgiion with the religious identity has effects no different. “Situational ethinicity” is a completely different concept again. That means a person defines themselves ethnically against another person depending on who that other person is, that is, by situation. It isn’t that they convert to something else. > [@](#): > > It is clear the idea of ethnicity has no barriers as you propose it, and you have not presented other evidences, but your own assertion on how this works either. A converted person to Judiasm being considered widely as also a Jew ethnically, present your evidence of this consideration and make the difference clear between the religious application and the ethnic… My evidence was that Judaism is different from what are considered ethnicities in part because you could convert to it. You said other ethnicities also share this characteristic. I challenged you to name one. You have not. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976/30 "2014-06-17T21:25:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > … > My evidence was that Judaism is different from what are considered ethnicities in part because you could convert to it. You said other ethnicities also share this characteristic. I challenged you to name one. You have not. The [Cossacks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks) have been considered an ethnic group, and it is is possible to join them. It looks like there is no formal conversion ceremony per se - one who wanted to be a Cossack would become one by hanging out with Cossacks, doing things that Cossacks do like join the army, adopting Cossack fashion, speaking Russian and/or Ukrainian, marrying a Cossack, and/or other things of that nature. Since there are no hard and fast rules about admission, it becomes a practical and social matter. Do your neighbors think “Cossack” when they hear your name? Do other Cossacks invite you to parties? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976/31 "2014-06-17T21:48:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Basing self-identity on an (ancient) shared ancestor, rather than on obvious visible characteristics of shared identity (shared language, shared external appearance, etc) is more commonly associated with the tribe than with ethnic groups… > > Generally speaking, you cannot by an act of will join an “Ethnicity”. You cannot, even by learning French and becomming Canadian, “join” the pure lane Quebequois… Do, or should, ethnicities have blood quanta? E.g. if I can find one great-great-grandmother who was Quebecois, does that automatically make me Quebecois? Do I get a choice if I want to be Quebecois or not? If I disavow Quebecois identity but my son wants it, can he reclaim his heritage or has it been lost? Can I be Quebecois, Cajun, Pennsylvania Dutch, WASP, _and_ Boston Irish all at the same time if I have at least one ancestor from each of those groups, or do I have to pick one? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976/32 "2014-06-18T13:10:29Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > The [Cossacks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks) have been considered an ethnic group, and it is is possible to join them. It looks like there is no formal conversion ceremony per se - one who wanted to be a Cossack would become one by hanging out with Cossacks, doing things that Cossacks do like join the army, adopting Cossack fashion, speaking Russian and/or Ukrainian, marrying a Cossack, and/or other things of that nature. Since there are no hard and fast rules about admission, it becomes a practical and social matter. Do your neighbors think “Cossack” when they hear your name? Do other Cossacks invite you to parties? The Cossacks are considered an ethnic group _now_. They have, however, gone through considerable social evolution since the freewheeling days of the “free riders of the plains”. They certainly were not considered a seperate ethnic group when you could join them simply by running away from serfdom and taking an oath of brotherhood. Since that time, they first evolved into a miltary caste quite different from their freedom-loving origins, as your cite points out: > [@](#): > > By the end of the 18th century, Cossack nations had been transformed into a special military estate (Sosloviye), “a military class”.[13] Similar to the knights of medieval Europe in feudal times, the Cossacks came to military service having to obtain charger horses, arms, and supplies at their own expense. The government provided only firearms and supplies for them.[14] Cossack service was considered the most rigorous one. No-one considers knights to be an “ethnic group”. They are a caste or class. Since the 18th century, and into modern times, they have indeed evolved into what amounts to an “ethnic group” … but that only applies to “ethnic cossacks”, not to those simply undertaking the miltary role od cossacks. Please note that your site, that you quoted, makes this distinction plain: > [@](#): > > Ethnic or “born” (prirodnye) Cossacks are those who can trace, or claim to trace, their ancestry to people and families identified as Cossacks in the Tsarist era. They tend to be Christian, practicing as Orthodox Christians or Old Believers. This group includes the edinovertsy, who identify as Slavic. > > Others can be initiated as Cossacks, particularly men in military service. Such initiates may be neither ethnic Slavic nor Christian in religion. Not everyone agrees that such initiates should be considered Cossack. There is no consensus on an initiation rite or rules. Emphasis added. In short, it is possible to join the “cossacks”, that is, the military role (though not everyone agrees on even that); it is not possible to join the “ethnic cossacks” - you must be born into it. This, according to your own cite that you chose. So, sadly, this is not an example of your point, but one for mine. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976/33 "2014-06-18T13:15:15Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Do, or should, ethnicities have blood quanta? E.g. if I can find one great-great-grandmother who was Quebecois, does that automatically make me Quebecois? Do I get a choice if I want to be Quebecois or not? If I disavow Quebecois identity but my son wants it, can he reclaim his heritage or has it been lost? > > Can I be Quebecois, Cajun, Pennsylvania Dutch, WASP, _and_ Boston Irish all at the same time if I have at least one ancestor from each of those groups, or do I have to pick one? It isn’t a normative claim, but a descriptive one. In short, there is no “should” about it. You, personally, can claim to be whatever you want. The issue is what is generally understood as an “ethnicity”. Naturally, as some people are mixes from everywhere, the choices are not based on some sort of Nazi-style blood quanta. but on what elements of ancestry people choose to emphasize, and is based on all sorts of other factors - like outward appearance, language, and other cultural aspects. However, it is not something one can literally do overnight, unlike changing nationality or tribal affiliation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/using-tribe-to-describe-groupings/690976.md?page=1)