# USS Carl Vinson was actually headed away from North Korea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796 "2017-04-19T16:35:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/61 "2017-04-20T01:02:33Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Also, once an airliner reaches the surface of the ocean, it sinks. Not all of it and not immediately, but even if that were true, surely if the Chinese know where all the US Navy carriers are to within one-meter precision at all times, they can tell us where MH370 was in the minutes or hour (or two or three) _before_ it reached the surface, couldn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/62 "2017-04-20T01:05:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not all of it and not immediately, but even if that were true, surely if the Chinese know where all the US Navy carriers are to within one-meter precision at all times, they can tell us where MH370 was in the minutes or hour (or two or three) _before_ it reached the surface, couldn’t they? Their assets are trained on threats (such as enemy flotiilas) not on everyday airline traffic. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/63 "2017-04-20T01:14:44Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Their assets are trained on threats (such as enemy flotiilas) not on everyday airline traffic. Are we still talking about the satellites? Because they’re not really “trained on” anything. They pass overhead in their orbit, taking in pictures / radar data over a whole swath of the globe at once, and then they transmit it back to Earth, where analysts review it. It’s not like there’s a guy with a joystick aiming the camera or radar as it passes by, making sure to “train it on” the carrier. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/64 "2017-04-20T01:20:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Does that not give any of you pause? What causes me greatest pause is the notion that if you wanted to hide a US carrier group the most efficacious place would be the White House press office. Anybody recall [Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Saeed_al-Sahhaf)of 2003 Gulf War fame? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/65 "2017-04-20T01:28:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are we still talking about the satellites? Because they’re not really “trained on” anything. They pass overhead in their orbit, taking in pictures / radar data over a whole swath of the globe at once, and then they transmit it back to Earth, where analysts review it. It’s not like there’s a guy with a joystick aiming the camera or radar as it passes by, making sure to “train it on” the carrier. I’m talking about Chinese (or whomevers) intelligence assets in all forms. But yeah, I am aware of how satellites work. It’s not like a drone, but they can alter their orbits to pass over areas of interest. And carrier groups are far more interesting than an sunken airliner. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/66 "2017-04-20T01:29:54Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > I’m talking about Chinese (or whomevers) intelligence assets in all forms. But yeah, I am aware of how satellites work. It’s not like a drone, but they can alter their orbits to pass over areas of interest. And carrier groups are far more interesting than an sunken airliner. You think they might be altering the orbits of their satellites to track carriers? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/67 "2017-04-20T01:36:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Flight MH370 disappeared only a few years ago. In fact, it was only a few months ago that they formally abandoned the search. We’re talking about a huge aircraft. And despite all the C-band SAR satellites and drones and sympathetic commercial navigation officers and Jindalee OTHR and the rest of it, we don’t have a clue where it went. Does that not give any of you pause? Ok, this statement alone tells me that discussing this issue with you is futile, because you’re understanding of what you are talking about is poor, and your ability to think through what you are saying is also poor. Airplanes travel significantly faster than ships. Commercial aircraft are not targets of surveillance. You don’t track ships by just randomly pouring over satellite pictures hoping to spot something; you start with last known point and direction and speed and stuff like that. And yes, I would be willing to bet that the People’s Republic of China is aware of “exactly”\* where our Western Pacific carrier groups are at any point in time that they care to. Indeed, they’d be incredibly stupid not to be aware of them. If you care to extend this discussion with others, feel free, but I’m done. \*“exactly” here probably good to at least a couple nautical miles one way or the other ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/68 "2017-04-20T01:48:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You think they might be altering the orbits of their satellites to track carriers? What would you track with satellites? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/69 "2017-04-20T02:09:58Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > What would you track with satellites? The carriers are the most logic targets of their satellites, to the extent that satellites have targets, but I don’t believe the Chinese are “alter[ing] their orbits”. Doing so to any significant degree would exhaust their fuel supplies in fairly short order, especially if it were done with enough frequency to mirror a carrier’s movement. It’s also probably unnecessary, as the swath of the globe that the satellite maps is probably plenty wide to do the job, without the need for alterations to orbit. We literally track this sort of stuff constantly ([here is Yaogan 30](http://www.n2yo.com/?s=41473), for example, currently passing over the Arctic) ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/70 "2017-04-20T02:14:14Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The carriers are the most logic targets of their satellites, to the extent that satellites have targets, but I don’t believe the Chinese are “alter[ing] their orbits”. Doing so to any significant degree would exhaust their fuel supplies in fairly short order, especially if it were done with enough frequency to mirror a carrier’s movement. It’s also probably unnecessary, as the swath of the globe that the satellite maps is probably plenty wide to do the job, without the need for alterations to orbit. We literally track this sort of stuff constantly ([here is Yaogan 30](http://www.n2yo.com/?s=41473), for example, currently passing over the Arctic) So why are you continuing to argue that china can’t track our carriers? ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/71 "2017-04-20T02:20:04Z")
Snap! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/72 "2017-04-20T02:25:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not all of it and not immediately, but even if that were true, surely if the Chinese know where all the US Navy carriers are to within one-meter precision at all times, they can tell us where MH370 was in the minutes or hour (or two or three) _before_ it reached the surface, couldn’t they? You don’t know how military satellites work, and you’re implying that others have a lack of expertise? Jeez. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/73 "2017-04-20T02:34:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You don’t know how military satellites work, and you’re implying that others have a lack of expertise? Jeez. What do you mean by “how military satellites work”? I suspect I’ve got a better understanding of satellites than most people in this thread and on this board, but why don’t you try to fight ignorance and teach me where you think I’m mistaken or have misunderstood something? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/74 "2017-04-20T02:36:39Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > So why are you continuing to argue that china can’t track our carriers? Because just because someone has a satellite, or 30 satellites, doesn’t mean they can tell you where everything on Earth is, which seems to be the view of some posters in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/75 "2017-04-20T02:39:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I suspect I’ve got a better understanding of satellites than most people in this thread and on this board I ain’t believing that until I done hear Sean Spicer say it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/76 "2017-04-20T02:44:34Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > I ain’t believing that until I done hear Sean Spicer say it. That’s fine, I’m not really asking you to believe it. I was just responding to Ravenman’s post that “You don’t know how military satellites work …” ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/77 "2017-04-20T06:59:57Z")
**For those people arguing that China and other countries don’t know the position of US carrier groups:** Do you also think that the US doesn’t know the location of Chinese and Russian capital ships? Do you imagine that a Chinese or Russian aircraft carrier flotilla could just suddenly pop up anywhere in the world, and the Pentagon would be taken by surprise? Do you imagine that if the Chinese publicly announced with great fanfare that a carrier group was sailing towards Japan, and in fact it was really 3000 miles away from where they said, sailing towards Australia, that the US wouldn’t notice? Then why do you imagine that other countries don’t know where US capital ships are? Especially after such a major announcement by the Clown-in-Chief, and the whole US administration making a big deal about sending a carrier group to North Korea? That kind of attitude seems to based on prejudice, arrogance, and ignorance. ‘Them dirty furriners ain’t as smart as what we are.’ Trump seems to think that if he puts a blindfold over his own eyes, then nobody can see him. And all his supporters play along and say, “Trump has got a cunning plan. Really! He’s as cunning as a fox who’s just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/78 "2017-04-20T09:16:39Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What do you mean by “how military satellites work”? I suspect I’ve got a better understanding of satellites than most people in this thread and on this board, but why don’t you try to fight ignorance and teach me where you think I’m mistaken or have misunderstood something? If you think that spy satellites can’t aim and take pictures of a specific area, then I’m not sure if your understanding is very good. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/79 "2017-04-20T09:55:05Z")
I’m sure all of us on this thread know more about military satellites than anyone 🙂 Anyway, what I think happened is: The order went out to the Navy to do some sabre rattling, but not to the detriment of their actual mission; in particular, not at the expense of the long-planned and important naval exercise with Australia. [Original Navy press release](http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=99815) is deliberately misleading. Says the port calls have been canceled (and this seems to be true) but doesn’t say the exercise was. [Navy Times](https://www.navytimes.com/articles/korea-crisis-deepens-as-the-us-dispatches-the-carl-vinson-strike-group-to-the-region) then goes all out with propaganda guns blazing, and includes the false claim that the naval exercise itself was canceled. H.R. McMaster must’ve been in on it. Interesting deflection and gratuitous propaganda in his [Chris Wallace interview:](http://www.foxnews.com/transcript/2017/04/09/exclusive-general-h-r-mcmaster-on-decision-to-strike-syria.html) > [@](#): > > Did President Xi give any indication that he now takes President Trump statement more seriously that if China doesn’t act to stop North Korea’s nuclear program, that he, President Trump, will? Did you get the sense that they were taking that more seriously, and also we learned this morning that a U.S. carrier strike force is on its way to the Korean Peninsula, why? > > MCMASTER: Well, it is such a privilege to be part of this national security team and help enable this team for the president as national security advisor. It’s really extraordinary. There was a component of truth to the story - there was an actual change in the mission of the carrier group. The Navy just got orders to amp up the propaganda on it. And they would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn’t for those meddling news media with their fake news! ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/80 "2017-04-20T09:58:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The carriers are the most logic targets of their satellites, to the extent that satellites have targets, but I don’t believe the Chinese are “alter[ing] their orbits”. Doing so to any significant degree would exhaust their fuel supplies in fairly short order, especially if it were done with enough frequency to mirror a carrier’s movement. It’s also probably unnecessary, as the swath of the globe that the satellite maps is probably plenty wide to do the job, without the need for alterations to orbit. Too bad you’re not the captain of the Vinson. The way you zig and zag, the Chinese would never find you. > [@](#): > > I suspect I’ve got a better understanding of satellites than most people in this thread and on this board I know next to nothing about satellites, but I knew that spy satellites could see through clouds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796.md?page=5)