# USS Carl Vinson was actually headed away from North Korea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796 "2017-04-19T16:35:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/81 "2017-04-20T10:29:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What do you mean by “how military satellites work”? I suspect I’ve got a better understanding of satellites than most people in this thread and on this board, but why don’t you try to fight ignorance and teach me where you think I’m mistaken or have misunderstood something? First of all, ocean surveillance satellites are ELINT/SIGINT satellites, so posting about cloud cover has fuck-all to do with anything. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/82 "2017-04-20T10:42:28Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > No one else seems to have picked up on this, but is Trump seriously leaking the location of USN boomers? Attack subs are in no way more powerful than carriers, so unless we just say he’s talking gibberish (a very real possibility) he has to be referring to missile subs. Is it not standard practice to refuse to say anything whatsoever about the location of boomers? “He’s talking gibberish” is the likeliest explanation once you break this down into Trump-sized bites of data; 1. Nuclear is powerful, nobody knew how powerful the nuclear was, I can tell you that 2. Submarines have the nuclear; they’re hidden, very smart, not like Crooked Hillary telling everybody, oh, our submarines are gonna be over here 3. Therefore, submarines are very powerful, tremendous, much more than the carriers that don’t have nuclear, North Korea is gonna be calling me in a few weeks and we’re gonna make a deal, great deal, everyone’s gonna love it, trust me ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/83 "2017-04-20T13:41:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, I have. Which satellites do Japan or South Korea have that would give them the precise location of our carriers? I would imagine any one of Japan’s [7 operational Information Gathering Satellites](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Gathering_Satellite) could track an aircraft carrier. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/84 "2017-04-20T13:52:10Z")
I would wager that each of the world’s major naval powers has somebody that tracks the location of all of the vessels of all the other naval powers. The Russians know where all the Chinese, American, British, French, and Canadian vessels are at any given time. Likewise each of the others about all of the others. Compared to the tens of thousands of commercial aircraft, there aren’t that many ships and they don’t move all that fast. Keeping tabs on all the world’s navies probably isn’t that difficult. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/85 "2017-04-20T14:09:59Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > **For those people arguing that China and other countries don’t know the position of US carrier groups:** > > Do you also think that the US doesn’t know the location of Chinese and Russian capital ships? > Do you imagine that a Chinese or Russian aircraft carrier flotilla could just suddenly pop up anywhere in the world, and the Pentagon would be taken by surprise? > Do you imagine that if the Chinese publicly announced with great fanfare that a carrier group was sailing towards Japan, and in fact it was really 3000 miles away from where they said, sailing towards Australia, that the US wouldn’t notice? > > Then why do you imagine that other countries don’t know where US capital ships are? Especially after such a major announcement by the Clown-in-Chief, and the whole US administration making a big deal about sending a carrier group to North Korea? > > That kind of attitude seems to based on prejudice, arrogance, and ignorance. ‘Them dirty furriners ain’t as smart as what we are.’ > > Trump seems to think that if he puts a blindfold over his own eyes, then nobody can see him. And all his supporters play along and say, “Trump has got a cunning plan. Really! He’s as cunning as a fox who’s just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University.” Do you imagine that the US doesn’t know where US ships are? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/86 "2017-04-20T14:24:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you imagine that the US doesn’t know where US ships are? It certainly seems like the Trump administration is the last to know. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/87 "2017-04-20T14:29:53Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Wait. Your college actually offered a major with an emphasis in nuclear deterrence? No. Sorry I wasn’t clear. The undergrad major was simply PolSci. But every elective I took w/in that major was international relations, and I took several classes from and worked closely with one particular prof who was pretty significantly involved in the SALT/START treaties. Gotta be right up there on any short list of “most worthless majors down the road!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/88 "2017-04-20T14:45:33Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It certainly seems like the Trump administration is the last to know. Things aren’t always the way they seem, but I just think it’s funny how so many people are arguing “but of course a country like Japan knows where the US ships are”, but are OK with “of course a country like the US doesn’t know where its ships are”. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/89 "2017-04-20T15:01:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Things aren’t always the way they seem, but I just think it’s funny how so many people are arguing “but of course a country like Japan knows where the US ships are”, but are OK with “of course a country like the US doesn’t know where its ships are”. I doubt very much that the US Navy command lost their carrier fleet. Any loss of signal fidelity is between the military and the White House in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/90 "2017-04-20T15:11:18Z")
South Korean reaction on [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/20/asia/south-korea-worries-donald-trump-uss-carl-vinson/index.html). > [@](#): > > CNN)US President Donald Trump said he was sending “an armada” to Korean waters to potentially deal with threats from Pyongyang. > > But its no-show has caused some South Koreans to question his leadership and strategy regarding their unpredictable neighbor in the north. > > And as the country prepares to vote for a new president on May 9, the claim could have far-reaching implications for the two countries’ relations. > > “What Mr. Trump said was very important for the national security of South Korea,” Presidential candidate Hong Joon-pyo told the Wall Street Journal. > > "If that was a lie, then during Trump’s term, South Korea will not trust whatever Trump says,"​ said Hong, who is currently trailing in the polls. > > South Korean media also seized on the conflicting reports on Trump’s “armada” – led by the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/91 "2017-04-20T15:24:30Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It certainly seems like the Trump administration is the last to know. They’re just “keeping you in suspense.” It’s all part of Trump’s upcoming book, _The Art of the Squeal: How to Keep Both Your Eniemies and Allies on Unstable Ground in Order to Get More Real Estate and Trademark Concessions_. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/92 "2017-04-20T15:25:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I doubt very much that the US Navy command lost their carrier fleet. What you didn’t know, was that the sabre-rattlin’ mission was so secret, no distress signal had been sent. They didn’t even tell Sean Spicer for a week. Very first light, Quicksilver, media come cruisin’ by, so we formed ourselves into tight groups. It was sorta like you see in the calendars, you know the infantry squares in the old calendars like the Battle of Waterloo and the idea was a reporter come to the nearest Republican, that white man he starts poundin’ and hollerin’ and sometimes that journalist, he go away. But sometimes he wouldn’t go away. Sometimes Donald Trump looks right at ya. Right into your eyes. And the thing about The Donald is he’s got lifeless eyes… black eyes, like a doll’s eyes. When he comes at ya, he doesn’t even seem to be livin’… ‘til he says “My inauguration numbers were great, great, the biggest ever” and those black eyes roll over white and then… ah then you hear that terrible high-pitched screamin’ of “Lock her up! Lock her up!” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/93 "2017-04-20T15:50:10Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > First of all, ocean surveillance satellites are ELINT/SIGINT satellites, so posting about cloud cover has fuck-all to do with anything. This is [Jonathan Solomon](https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-solomon-99607298/). He was a Surface Warfare Officer from 2000 - 2004. A few years ago he wrote an article called “[Maritime Deception and Concealment: Concepts for Defeating Wide-Area Oceanic Surveillance Reconnaissance-Strike Networks](https://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/e2f92747-f9f1-4987-8db4-7e99874214b2/Maritime-Deception-and-Concealment--Concepts-for-D.aspx)” In it, he wrote: > [@](#): > > Additionally, a force’s operations can be adjusted to exploit meteorological > phenomena. Sufficiently dense haze and cloud cover reduces vulnerability to > infrared (IR) and visual-band electro-optical (EO) sensors. Precipitation similarly > reduces EO/IR sensor effectiveness and, depending on wavelength and > clutter-rejection capabilities, sometimes radar as well. Atmospheric layering > can cause radar emissions to be so refracted as to render nearby surface units > and aircraft undetectable. Highly variable diurnal ionospheric conditions can > likewise degrade shore-based over-the-horizon-backscatter (OTH-B) radars. > Heavy seas, however uncomfortable for crews, increase the background clutter > OTH-B radars must sift through, as well as the ambient noise that complicates > passive sonar search. Why do you think he bothered to include that in his article if “cloud cover has fuck-all to do with anything”? He also states: > [@](#): > > It is instructive that throughout the Cold War the vaunted Soviet maritime > “reconnaissance-strike complex,” notwithstanding its wide-area land, sea, air, > and space sensors for over-the-horizon missile targeting, was forced by U.S. Navy > deception and concealment to depend consistently on visual-range scouts for > positive target identification. The physics of contemporary sensor capabilities > and limitations does not suggest that the near future will be any different. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/94 "2017-04-20T15:55:03Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It was fun listening to snippets of Spicer’s presser on the radio this afternoon. That guy is comedy gold. The problem, it seems, is that the statement that this vast armada was steaming toward NK merely meant that it might do so at some future date, and the inferior liberal journalists failed to seek the appropriate clarification. If, for instance, someone had said to Sean, “But Sean, isn’t the USS Carl Vinson at the moment 3000 miles away and moving _ **away** _ from North Korea?”, Sean would have been happy to reply “Why yes, now that you ask”. But since no one asked, Sean found it unnecessary to add this detail. That seems pretty clear to me. 😃 [Link](https://thinkprogress.org/spicer-gets-imaginative-to-defend-white-houses-aircraft-carrier-misinformation-6b4f10c00606) for those who haven’t seen it yet. It’s Spicer at is Spicest ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/95 "2017-04-20T16:04:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This is [Jonathan Solomon](https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-solomon-99607298/). He was a Surface Warfare Officer from 2000 - 2004. A few years ago he wrote an article called “[Maritime Deception and Concealment: Concepts for Defeating Wide-Area Oceanic Surveillance Reconnaissance-Strike Networks](https://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/e2f92747-f9f1-4987-8db4-7e99874214b2/Maritime-Deception-and-Concealment--Concepts-for-D.aspx)” In it, he wrote: > > Why do you think he bothered to include that in his article if “cloud cover has fuck-all to do with anything”? > He also states: I say you’re in no position to lecture others about military satellite capabilities, and you post about mostly over the horizon radar. Great. You showed me. But good. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/96 "2017-04-20T16:11:18Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > That kind of attitude seems to based on prejudice, arrogance, and ignorance. ‘Them dirty furriners ain’t as smart as what we are.’ I’m struggling to see this as something other than the stereotypical liberal if-you-disagree-with-me-you-must-be-racist response. It’s not “prejudice, arrogance, and ignorance” to acknowledge the facts and reality of the situation. The USA has several multiples of the number of satellites in orbit that China does. Our Navy has significantly-more ISR assets than North Korea’s. Our space program is the only one to have successfully landed a functioning rover on Mars, or reused spacecraft. It’s got nothing to do with ‘them dirty furriners’ being dumb and incapable, but lets try to ground ourselves in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/97 "2017-04-20T16:47:32Z")
In addition to seeing the ships directly, a ship the size and speed of an aircraft carrier is going to leave one heck of a wake, much, much larger than the ship itself. Even if the ship itself is under a cloud, you’re likely to be able to see the wake, and seeing that will tell you the position of the ship, its direction of motion, and its speed. And launching a satellite that can see that is a heck of a lot easier than reaching the Moon or Mars, and will be high on the priority list of any nation that has any satellites at all. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/98 "2017-04-20T16:58:40Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > They’re just “keeping you in suspense.” It’s all part of Trump’s upcoming book, _The Art of the Squeal: How to Keep Both Your Eniemies and Allies on Unstable Ground in Order to Get More Real Estate and Trademark Concessions_. > > Stranger He Blinded them with Bullshit! (…apologies to Thomas Dolby) ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/99 "2017-04-20T17:25:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “Sufficiently dense haze and cloud cover reduces vulnerability to infrared (IR) and visual-band electro-optical (EO) sensors. … Highly variable diurnal ionospheric conditions can likewise degrade shore-based over-the-horizon-backscatter (OTH-B) radars.” > Why do you think he bothered to include that in his article if “cloud cover has fuck-all to do with anything”? He is listing the limitations of specific technologies. But as already mentioned by many posters, SAR is a completely different technology from EO, IR or OTH-B. By the way, [this page](http://cms.mapmart.com/Products/SatelliteImagery/TerraSAR-X.aspx) has an example of how an aircraft carrier looks like on SAR satellite imagery. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796/100 "2017-04-20T17:34:15Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > He is listing the limitations of specific technologies. But as already mentioned by many posters, SAR is a completely different technology from EO, IR or OTH-B. > > By the way, [this page](http://cms.mapmart.com/Products/SatelliteImagery/TerraSAR-X.aspx) has an example of how an aircraft carrier looks like on SAR satellite imagery. And do you think there are any limitations to the SAR technology? Also, over half of the Chinese [Yaogan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaogan) satellite network is believed to be optical, not SAR. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-carl-vinson-was-actually-headed-away-from-north-korea/784796.md?page=6)