# USS Nimitz vs the Japanese fleet **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 22, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333 "2010-05-22T03:10:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/121 "2010-05-25T03:37:20Z")
I just finally watched the movie (which I rented from Netflix due to this thread, good movie!). One thing that hasn’t been mentioned (I don’t believe), is the helicopters. WWII didn’t have any serviceable helicopters in it, would the helicopters on board the Nimitz have made a difference in the war? Would the WWII military be able to reverse engineer and make a working helicopter from the technology on the Nimitz? Would it have made a difference? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/122 "2010-05-25T03:59:28Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > WWII didn’t have any serviceable helicopters in it [Flettner Fl-282](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flettner_Fl_282). > [@](#): > > By 1943 over 20 B-1 models were in service in the Baltic, Mediterranean and Aegean. Their roles included ferrying items between ships and reconnaissance. [Focke-Achgelis Fa-223](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke_Achgelis_Fa_223) > [@](#): > > The V12, after completing a long cross-country flight from Germany, was flown to Mont Blanc to perform a rescue of 17 people trapped on the mountain. Unfortunately, a mechanical link failure resulted in a rotor disintegrating, and, although the machine touched down on its wheels, it was hurled against an embankment and the crew was killed. [Sikorski R-4](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_R-4) > [@](#): > > On 22–23 April 1944, U.S. Army Lieutenant Carter Harman conducted the first combat rescue by helicopter using a YR-4 in the China-Burma-India theater. Despite the high altitude, humidity, and capacity for only a single passenger, Harman rescued a downed liaison aircraft pilot and his three British soldier passengers; two at a time. On 22–23 January 1945, another rescue by the R-4 involved several legs for refueling and navigating through passes between mountains nearly 10,000 feet (3,000 m) tall, to reach a weather station located at an elevation of 4,700 feet (1,400 m). The higher than normal altitude required a downhill run of 20 ft (6.1 m) to get airborne. > > While the R-4 was being used for rescues in Burma and China, it was also being used to ferry parts between floating Aviation Repair Units in the South Pacific. On 23 May 1944, six ships set sail with two R-4s on board each vessel. The ships had been configured as floating repair depots for damaged Army Air Forces aircraft in the South Pacific. When the helicopters were not being used to fly the parts from one location to another, they were enlisted for medical evacuation and other mercy missions [List of helicopters and autogyros used in WWII](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_helicopters_used_in_World_War_II) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/123 "2010-05-25T04:15:27Z")
Serviceable, then, but hardly widespread in their use. That would have to wait until the Korean War… but certainly U.S. engineers in 1941 could learn a lot from reverse-engineering a 1980 USN helo. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/124 "2010-05-25T04:27:00Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > but certainly U.S. engineers in 1941 could learn a lot from reverse-engineering a 1980 USN helo. Perhaps. But Igor Sikorski flew his VS-300 in 1940. The VS-300 was configured like most of the helicopters around today – single main rotor with a smaller anti-torque rotor on a tail-boom. And there were usable helis in the '30s. The biggest problem would be the powerplant. Military helicopters use turboshaft engines that develop a lot of power without much weight. I’m not sure when the first turboshaft was built, but since it was a Turbomeca I suspect it wasn’t until after the war. In 1941 there were the boxer engines used by most General Aviation aircraft today, inline- or V-engines of various displacements and power, and radials. The trick would be to build an airframe light enough to be powered by an engine that developed enough power to lift itself, the airframe, occupants, and equipment. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/125 "2010-05-25T05:34:12Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > When a brawl erupts, they use their martial arts training to systematically cripple a dozen WWII leathernecks. My dad was a Golden Gloves boxing champ, a WWII vet and worked later on with youth in martial arts. Martial arts or no, a seasoned combat vet would wipe the floor with all three of them\*. And of course, some WWII troops were trained in Martial arts. Hell, Boxing _is_ a martial art. Now sure, if those guys were fairly new recruits with no combat experience, things would be different. Or if the guys from the future were combat veterans with HtH expereince. \*As he said, it’s the lack of hesitation, the ability to kill, etc. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/126 "2010-05-25T05:36:14Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > A couple of points about this. The US would never have revealed the ultimatum text, and with it the knowledge that it had broken the highest Japanese codes. > > 2nd, even with the text in hand before the Japanese diplomats had it, there wasn’t enough information to predict the attack. I think it’s unlikely that the Japanese diplomats _in Washinton_ would fail to deliver the ultimatum even after the attack was thwarted FDR ‘hey, we got this memo thingy, saddled up, and kicked their ass, why would you want to impeach me for that?’ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/127 "2010-05-25T05:43:15Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Ok, for some other interesting historical matchups: > USS Seawolf versus the Imperial German Fleet at Jutland (I think you might need a few more subs to have enough torpedoes, that was a BIG fleet.) > . Without nukes, some of those battlewagons would take numerous torps. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/128 "2010-05-25T05:53:24Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > I think it’s unlikely that the Japanese diplomats _in Washinton_ would fail to deliver the ultimatum even after the attack was thwarted > > FDR ‘hey, we got this memo thingy, saddled up, and kicked their ass, why would you want to impeach me for that?’ You’re right, though actually America had already delivered an ultimatum to Japan. What they handed to the US on Dec 8 was an outright declaration of war. I just found the [text of that declaration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_declaration_of_war_on_the_United_States_and_the_British_Empire), which I’ve never before read. I hadn’t realized it was a twofer, also declaring war against Great Britain. I believe there were a couple of other countries Japan attacked at the same time. I wonder if they got their own declarations? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/129 "2010-05-25T06:14:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Without nukes, some of those battlewagons would take numerous torps. Yeah, maybe it would be more interesting to have the last of the modern battleships take on the entire German WWI fleet. It could outrun all the capitol ships, though maybe not destroyers and light cruisers. Still if it stayed at extreme range, it might well run out of shells before sinking them all. So it would need to come in closer to improve the accuracy, but that might bring it into the range of the German battleships. I think the refitted Iowa(?) class battleships had some Harpoons, but not a huge number. 16, if my naval warfare simulator is modeling them correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/130 "2010-05-25T08:05:40Z")
> [@](#): > > I just found the text of that declaration, which I’ve never before read. I hadn’t realized it was a twofer, also declaring war against Great Britain. I believe there were a couple of other countries Japan attacked at the same time. I wonder if they got their own declarations? The Netherlands. Capturing the Dutch East Indies (modern Indonesia) and its oil fields was after all the reason for starting the war. ---
**Author:** ![enigmatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@enigmatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigmatic)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/131 "2010-05-25T08:58:56Z")
There seem to be a consensus that the Nimitz would be able to deal with the Japanese fleet in short order given most reasonable scenarios. What difference would the Nimitz have made to the ground fighting in the Pacific? Would the possible early defeat of the islands naval support, the air to ground support that the Nimitz could offer, and the strategic knowledge of the original campaign significantly reduce American casualties (assuming the Japanese didn’t surrender earlier). ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/132 "2010-05-25T12:09:14Z")
Absolutely. No need to take Okinawa or Iwo Jima when you know nukes are going to do it for sure anyhow. Other than that, information again, ie about the high level of fortification on Iwo Jima etc, the non use of X island, etc etc. They could have leapfrogged even more than they did, and expansion could have been drastically curtailed from the getgo. Tons of early battles were a mess because they were guessing who was where, and that fog of war would be almost completely eliminated once you can effectively track ship movements. Instead of fighting shiploads of troops on land, they’re drowned before they even get there. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/133 "2010-05-25T12:50:13Z")
A side question I thought of last night at work: who would the President (assuming it’s FDR) get to advice him on future stuff and things like that? They’d want to keep the true identity of what happened hush-hush, yes? The Nimitz is just a superweapon they’d been secretly building. Another thing: if there’s no Pearl Harbor and the Japanese are stopped cold, the “sleeping giant” might not wake up as much. Would we pour as much energy into war production if there’s a general feeling the “new guys” can fix things up? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/134 "2010-05-25T13:05:06Z")
It certainly might’ve led to a sense of complacency among the American people. Given the huge early naval impact of the _Nimitz_ early in the war, I suspect things would’ve changed so much within six months to a year of the carrier’s arrival that most of the geopolitical stuff her officers “knew” from the original timeline would be inapplicable. Hmmm. I wonder what impact their advanced knowledge of the Holocaust would have? Antisemitism was pretty widespread then. I doubt that even hearing about the Holocaust (the worst of which was yet to come), or seeing the photos of the concentration camps in any books from the _Nimitz_’s library, would’ve impelled a declaration of war against Nazi Germany, unless Hitler was again foolish enough to declare war on the U.S. (not that I would put it past him). ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/135 "2010-05-25T14:25:31Z")
Not to mention that the Nimitz in the movie seemed to be pretty integrated. Not sure how a future ship with a black second in command would have been received in WW2. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/136 "2010-05-25T14:33:36Z")
That was one of the plot points in the Axis of Time trilogy mentioned upthread. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/137 "2010-05-25T14:44:13Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Not to mention that the Nimitz in the movie seemed to be pretty integrated. Not sure how a future ship with a black second in command would have been received in WW2. You’d be surprised how much more respect someone in charge of a superweapon gets. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![davekhps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@davekhps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davekhps)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/138 "2010-05-25T14:56:33Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I was specifically responding to comment that the Nimitz aircraft would sink the Japanes fleet before the planes even launched. > > Until the attack, American was largely isolationist and unwilling to participate in “someone else’s war”. If American forces attacked and sank an entire Japanese fleet without provocation, heads would need to roll. Claiming “our guys from the future said the attack is coming” wouldn’t cut it. No, but as noted, the Japanese declaration of war was already on the way, and the men of the Nimitz knew it (so did the U.S. in 1941 due to the code breaking). The Japanese fleet would have been sunk, but they would have had no way of getting word to the Japanese in Washington to stop delivery of the declaration of war. The timing would not have made any difference. That said, even if the timing wasn’t that convenient, there’s nothing at all objectionable about a preemptive attack undertaken in defense. Again, back to the movie scenario, the Japanese planes are already in the air. If they _weren’t_ in the air, the Japanese fleet is already at Hawaii threatening to attack (and again, the DoW is on its way). A matter of minutes one way or the other wouldn’t have mattered. Of course, without the rallying cry of “Remember Pearl Harbor” some Americans would have grumbled about the war, but then again, _even with_ the surprise attack some Americans still grumbled. I think the more relevant question to the scenario is what if the Nimitz went back in time _a month_ before Pearl Harbor. THEN you’re talking a case of a preemptive war from a cold start. Then what? ---
**Author:** ![ChrisBooth12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@ChrisBooth12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChrisBooth12)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/139 "2010-05-25T15:48:25Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Ok, for some other interesting historical matchups: > USS Seawolf versus the Imperial German Fleet at Jutland (I think you might need a few more subs to have enough torpedoes, that was a BIG fleet.) > USS Missouri versus the Spanish Armada > 101st Airborne Division versus the Huns. I would go with the 101st.. ---
**Author:** ![Umbriel2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/4af34b/32.png) [@Umbriel2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Umbriel2)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333/140 "2010-05-25T16:11:45Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > You’re right, though actually America had already delivered an ultimatum to Japan. What they handed to the US on Dec 8 was an outright declaration of war. > > I just found the [text of that declaration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_declaration_of_war_on_the_United_States_and_the_British_Empire), which I’ve never before read. I hadn’t realized it was a twofer, also declaring war against Great Britain. I believe there were a couple of other countries Japan attacked at the same time. I wonder if they got their own declarations? I don’t think the Japanese, as members of the Axis, recognized the Dutch government-in-exile, so I don’t suppose the Netherlands received its own declaration of war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uss-nimitz-vs-the-japanese-fleet/540333.md?page=8)