# Usual Suspects (possible spoiler) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [August 30, 2001, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935 "2001-08-30T14:43:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![warmgun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecccb3/32.png) [@warmgun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/warmgun)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/22 "2001-09-01T07:15:51Z")
Oops…almost forgot: (All together now) Good name for a rock band… ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/23 "2001-09-01T16:18:49Z")
By the way, was I the only one that caught the Vibrant Elk thing right away? I weep for the IQ of the moviegoing public. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/24 "2001-09-01T18:06:54Z")
Vibrant Elk??? Apparently you can weep for my IQ as well? ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/25 "2001-09-01T18:39:48Z")
OK, it’s in Cafe Society, but this would be my first official WOOOSH. Unless the always clever **waterj2** has subtly constructed a WOOOSH booby trap for me. Dag, where _is_ that sarcastic smiley? ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/26 "2001-09-01T20:23:13Z")
I thought it was a joke the first two posts on it, but you seemed so serious. I’ll admit, I got wooshed. Usually I can avoid it. An excellent use of subtlety there. [sub]I got called always clever! I got called always clever![/sub] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/27 "2001-09-01T21:04:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Some Guy \* > \*\*I always thought that bit at the end (with Kobayashi showing up as the chauffeur) was a pretty gigantic misstep - it’s just too “cute” , IMO, especially since Verbal has no reason to describe Kobayashi’s physical appearance accurately. It’s a (very minor) low point in an otherwise incredible movie. > \*\* So, it’s a mistake that’s both gigantic and very minor? Interesting. Whenever I hear voiceover, or see that the story is being told by someone in the movie, my English teacher training kicks in. Remember, all first person narrators are unreliable. Even if they are honest, we still get thier version of what happened, not what actually happened, and we must filter out their perceptions, misperceptions and lies to find the truth. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by The Ryan_ > \*\*What do you mean? I think that it just shows that KS was thinking about his chauffeur when he was describing Kobayashi. It doesn’t mean that he describes Kobayashi as being like his chauffeur, or that Kobayashi was his chauffeur, or anything else. It’s sort of like how at the end of The Wizard of Oz, we see some farmhands that look like the Cowardly Lion and the Tinman. It doesn’t mean that the farmhands were actually present in Oz. \*\* Dorothy got bonked on the head during the storm and incorporated the people she knew into her dream. Not only were they not in Oz, Oz didn’t really exist; it was all a dream. This parallel would suggest that everything that Kint says that isn’t directly verifiable is a lie. I’ve always interpreted the story as that Kint’s purpose was to A: find out what the police knew and B: amuse himself by playing mind games with them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/28 "2001-09-01T21:35:11Z")
Ground assumption: Soze made up a story that the cop could verify. Five men were arrested and put in jail together. Soze manipulated the situation only slightly, the same men would have been picked up anyway, they were the “Usual Suspects”. One of them must have been “Verbal”, but not Soze/Spacey. No way, Soze! (Sorry, I tried to resist…) EXCEPT Verbal Kinte! All the others were known stick-up men, VK’s presence in that cell is implausible, and the cop should have tumbled to that, being a cop and all. The entire thing was made up on the spot, except those parts that the cop could check on. Soze did coerce the US into attacking the ship so he could play Whack the Rat, and display his unique gifts in Targeted Urination. He just told the story in such a way that the cop, who had a serious hard-on for G. Byrnes character, would see what he wanted to see. Most important of all: the cop must percieve Kinte/Soze’s walking away from jail as doom, not as escape. I presume that no where in the movie does Soze/Kint know that there is a survivor who is giving a likeness to a sketch artist? That his walking out just as it comes over the fax machine is just a little dramatic fillip? ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2001, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/29 "2001-09-02T05:06:06Z")
Okay, so for \*\* Number Six\*\* and **The Ryan** : My point is pretty simple: I think that reusing Kobayashi for that final cameo was a mistake, because it doesn’t add anything to the film (by that point, everybody realizes that Verbal=Keyser Söze), and because it doesn’t tie up very neatly with the way that the film has developed. Up to that point, Kobayashi is presented either as one of Söze’s major, trusted, direct subordinates (in Verbal’s little fairy tale) or as an obvious fictionalization of an element that had to have taken place (at the climaz of the move - note that the basic scenario necessary to get people onto the boat would require a go-betweeen, but note also that Keyser Söze would never, ever have described such an important person with any degree of accuracy). Once the limo scene happens, however, you can’t say for certain which of these is true and which isn’t or indeed if either is. The overall is just confusing and indefinite, which detracts from an otherwise excellent ending to an otherwise excellent movie. Equally important, of course, is the fact that it’s completely unnecessary. I think it’s clear that a limo and driver are absolutely required for the final scene to work, but there’s nothing in the plot that requires it to be driven by anyone on particular. It turns out to be Kobayashi again, but that’s the screenplay (and the director) trying to get one last thing in. It comes off, at least in my mind, as being “too cute”, like having the county tax clerk played by Stephen Spielberg. “Cute” jars significantly with the tone that the rst of the move (and especially, the rest of the ending) is trying to establish. In this case, it’s unnecessary cute, so I feel justified in pointing it out as a minor flaw in the movie. And yes, I am obsessing far too much over a very minor point. It’s just always been a pet peeve of mine. Thanks in advance for not calling me a film dweeb 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2001, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/30 "2001-09-02T05:23:41Z")
Why are they all in the same cell? It would make sense if you had one, and then take the others he’s known to hang out with…thus, the usual suspects. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2001, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/31 "2001-09-02T05:47:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by enolancooper \* > \*\*Why are they all in the same cell? It would make sense > if you had one, and then take the others he’s known to hang out with…thus, the usual suspects. \*\* The title is a reference to “Casablanca” in which the police chief tells an underling to, “Round up the usual suspects.” > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Some Guy_ > \*\*“Cute” jars significantly with the tone that the rst of the move (and especially, the rest of the ending) is trying to establish. In this case, it’s unnecessary cute, so I feel justified in pointing it out as a minor flaw in the movie. > > And yes, I am obsessing far too much over a very minor point. It’s just always been a pet peeve of mine. Thanks in advance for not calling me a film dweeb. \*\* Hey, I wasn’t arguing with you. I was just pointing out that you called the mistake “gigantic” and “very minor” in the same paragraph. As for being a “film dweeb”, you say that as if it’s a _bad_ thing. Most of us prefer the term movie geek. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2001, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/32 "2001-09-02T16:53:00Z")
**Some Guy** > [@](#): > > Keyser Söze would never, ever have described such an important person with any degree of accuracy Very true. Which is why I don’t think he described anything. We’re seeing the images in Kint’s head, not Kujan’s. We don’t know what’s made up and what’s real, but… Let’s go over Soze’s goals: 1: Find out how much the police know. 2: Portray himself as a credulous, hapless non-player 3: Add some ammo to Kujan’s belief that Keaton is Soze 4: Let Kujan _convince Kint_ that Keaton is Soze 5: Convince Kujan that his “connections from up on high” as described earlier are none other than Keaton and his cronies. 6: Convince Kujan that he is letting this rat walk out into a death sentence So this, IMO, is what he makes up entirely. Verbal’s history All scenes between Keaton and Verbal Conversations involving only the US. Here’s where he massages the truth: Kobayashi’s name, other names All scenes involving Kobayashi Here are some where he essentially tells the truth: Descriptions of verifiable events and murders Where Fenster is buried Re: everyone in the same cell, you wouldn’t want to do that in case they were all invloved, it would give them a chance to work on their story and find out what the cops knew. Unless, of course, you were taping them… 😉 By the way, film dweebs rock. ---
**Author:** ![Oblong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c0e974/32.png) [@Oblong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oblong)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2001, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/33 "2001-09-02T20:14:23Z")
Everything we see isn’t Verbal, or Kujan’s story. Remember the scenes where Hockney and McManus die? Those aren’t narratives, especially Hockney’s because the POV is from the person who killed him. Verbal told him things that would check out upon verification or else Kujan would come back after him. Of course, by that point, he would be long gone. But, as pointed out, Verbal/Soze had to convince Kujan in such a way that he believed Keaton was Soze so that there would be no reason to back after Verbal to clear things up. ---
**Author:** ![warmgun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecccb3/32.png) [@warmgun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/warmgun)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2001, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/34 "2001-09-02T20:28:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\* > EXCEPT Verbal Kinte! All the others were known stick-up men, VK’s presence in that cell is implausible, and the cop should have tumbled to that, being a cop and all. > \*\* Yeah…right! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![warmgun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecccb3/32.png) [@warmgun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/warmgun)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2001, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/35 "2001-09-02T20:35:19Z")
I never assumed he was a chauffeur. I just thought he was his number one man/ lawyer swinging by to pick him up. I don’t remember VK describing him at all to Kujan. We just _saw_ it was the same guy. ---
**Author:** ![Savag3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@Savag3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Savag3)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935/36 "2022-10-04T11:46:45Z")
Could it be a clue that Keyser Söze is a Hungarian name and that “Kint” in hungarian means “outside”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/usual-suspects-possible-spoiler/78935.md?page=1)