# Utah Boy Scout rock toppling outrage **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 19, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644 "2013-10-19T12:20:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/1 "2013-10-19T12:20:22Z")
In Utah’s scenic Goblin Valley State Park a couple of US scouts filmed themselves interacting with a [hoodoo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoodoo_%28geology%29) - toppling the ancient rock formation as can be seen in the vid [here](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24591711). From that link, criminal charges are being considered and a lot of people, including the park service and Boy Scouts are very pissed off and the lads involved have even received [death threats (!).](http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/us-scout-leaders-get-death-threats-for-toppling-rock-in-goblin-valley-state-park/story-fnizu68q-1226742955479) > [@](#): > > Utah State Parks spokesman Eugene Swalberg said the state authorities were considering bringing the charges after the incident. > > “This is not behaviour that is appreciated or should exist in state parks,” he told the Deseret News. > > “This has been formed for literally millions of years, and it’s supposed to last for a long time. It doesn’t need individuals doing the work of Mother Nature.” > **[Utah ancient rock: US scouts could face charges](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24591711)** > > Criminal charges are being considered against a US scout leader who toppled an ancient rock formation in Utah, sparking an international outcry. > [@](#): > > In a statement to The Huffington Post, Deron Smith, the PR director for Boy Scouts of America, emphasized the organization’s focus on teaching respectable outdoor stewardship: > > We are shocked and disappointed by this reprehensible behavior. For more than a century, the Boy Scouts of America has been a leader in conservation—from stewardship to sustainability. We teach our 2.6 million youth members and 1.1 million adult members, who collectively spend more than 5.5 million nights outdoors, the principles of “Leave No Trace.” > **[WATCH: Scout Leaders Destroy Ancient Rock Formation](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/goblin-valley-boy-scout-leaders-destroy-rock_n_4122488)** > > WATCH: Scout Leaders Destroy Ancient Rock Formation The individuals involved say that the rock was loose anyway and posed a serious hazard, so they just helped it on its way in the name of saving lives (although given the tone of the vid I’d say they did it for the lulz and quickly came up with that, that’s just my take). Anyway, I want to hear your take - were they right or wrong in toppling a 170 million year old formation and should criminal charges be filed? ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/2 "2013-10-19T12:31:13Z")
They were wrong and should face charges. Even granting that the rock posed a safety threat they should have informed Park Services whose job it is to make such assessments and take appropriate action. I will go so far as to say that _if_ they can prove the rock formation was unsafe then that should be reflected in any sentencing. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/3 "2013-10-19T12:32:59Z")
Meant to say the BBC vids haven’t worked in the past, if that’s the case you can see full video of the incident in question on [YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHgpiMp1JqA). ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/4 "2013-10-19T12:51:02Z")
The fact that the rock didn’t easily topple over is proof enough that it wasn’t an immediate risk to anyone. I’m also sure there were other rocks out there that were perched just as precariously. Why just single that one as unsafe? Jackasses, all of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/5 "2013-10-19T13:01:50Z")
They were wrong and should face criminal charges. I doubt any half-awake judge would buy their half-baked ex post facto excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/6 "2013-10-19T13:09:30Z")
They were wrong. But what could you charge them with? Destruction of property? Vandalism? I don’t think they deserve to have their lives ruined or anything, but I’d be fine with seeing a $500 fine slapped on all of them or something. Community service, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/7 "2013-10-19T13:13:24Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > They were wrong. But what could you charge them with? Destruction of property? Vandalism? I don’t think they deserve to have their lives ruined or anything, but I’d be fine with seeing a $500 fine slapped on all of them or something. Community service, maybe. I’d be surprised if there weren’t at least one crime they could be charged with. (ill leave the particulars to someone versed in US/utah law.) Sending some time cleaning up the mess that other idiots inevitably leave in natural areas seems apt. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/8 "2013-10-19T13:15:12Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > They were wrong and should face charges. Even granting that the rock posed a safety threat they should have informed Park Services whose job it is to make such assessments and take appropriate action. I will go so far as to say that _if_ they can prove the rock formation was unsafe then that should be reflected in any sentencing. The scouts in question are [sticking to their story;](http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/18/us/utah-boulder-destroyed/) > [@](#): > > A few days later, Hall told KUTV that the goblin had been unstable. “That wasn’t going to last very long at all,” he told the CNN affiliate. “One gust of wind and a family’s dead.” > > Asked if he would do it again, he said, “Absolutely, absolutely.” > … > “We thought we were doing a good deed,” Taylor told the affiliate. What they’re selling, the authorities ain’t buying. The scouts acknowledge at least they were stupid not to inform park authorities while maintaining they were in the right. > [@](#): > > “It didn’t look like a stiff wind to me,” said Jeff Rasmussen, the deputy director of Utah State Parks and Recreation… > In his 22 years on the job, he had not heard of any goblins rolling off their pedestals. > … > Taylor has expressed regrets. “I wish we would have been smart enough to go get a ranger 'cause it was wrong of us to be vigilantes, and I’m sorry I did that,” he told CNN affiliate KSTU. Incidentally Utah has some of the most spectacular scenery I’ve ever seen, between [Zion](http://www.hdwpapers.com/walls/arch_angel_falls_zion_national_park_utah_wallpaper-normal.jpg) and [the place in question](http://bpham.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Goblin-Valley-State-Park1.jpg) which I’d not even heard of before today you people out there are incredibly fortunate. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/9 "2013-10-19T13:17:42Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Anyway, I want to hear your take - were they right or wrong in toppling a 170 million year old formation and should criminal charges be filed? Wrong, of course. The reason this park exists at all is the precariousness of those formations. They were reveling in a moment of collective stupidity. I’m thinking summer and holiday weekends cleaning latrines for the park service for the next couple years would be a good place to start. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/10 "2013-10-19T13:18:58Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > They were wrong. But what could you charge them with? Destruction of property? Vandalism? I don’t think they deserve to have their lives ruined or anything, but I’d be fine with seeing a $500 fine slapped on all of them or something. Community service, maybe. Five hundred dollars? For vandalizing national park property that’s a million years old? Five hundred dollars is what you’re fined when you spray paint your name on a wall in some alley. These guys should get a serious punishment. If it were up to me, I’d consider a $100,000 fine and a year in jail appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/11 "2013-10-19T13:21:08Z")
If they were concerned for the scouts’ safety why didn’t they avoid this park or avoid the precarious rock section of the park? Their excuse isn’t plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/12 "2013-10-19T13:26:04Z")
The fine should be to put the rock back where it was. With the same tools they used to topple it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/13 "2013-10-19T13:29:42Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > If they were concerned for the scouts’ safety why didn’t they avoid this park or avoid the precarious rock section of the park? Their excuse isn’t plausible. Speaking as devil’s advocate (as you see in the OP, I don’t necessarily buy their motive speech in the vid), their argument is rather that since the rock was very loose anyway while they were there they toppled it so that it could not be blown down and injure someone in the future. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/14 "2013-10-19T13:34:16Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Speaking as devil’s advocate (as you see in the OP, I don’t necessarily buy their motive speech in the vid), their argument is rather that since the rock was very loose anyway while they were there they toppled it so that it could not be blown down and injure someone in the future. Because the likelihood of a child standing downwind from that precarious boulder in gale force winds stronger than the oaf in the video is one in a what with how many commas and zeroes? ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/15 "2013-10-19T13:36:56Z")
They should be executed because, I gather from the thread title, they moved a rock. Kill them all. Or at least ruin their lives as I assume it was a really cool rock. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/16 "2013-10-19T13:39:44Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > Because the likelihood of a child standing downwind from that precarious boulder in gale force winds stronger than the oaf in the video is one in a what with how many commas and zeroes? Here’s what said oaf has to say on that very question; > [@](#): > > Taylor said he knocked the boulder to the ground after seeing a family walk by on a nearby popular path. When he touched the rock, Taylor noticed it was loose. > > “I put my hand on a rock and it moved,” he said. “While we were sitting right there we thought, ‘Man if this rock falls it’ll kill them.’ I didn’t have to push hard.” > **[Men may face felony charges after toppling Goblin Valley formation](https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=57012279&itype=CMSID)** > > \ **Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/17 "2013-10-19T13:43:49Z") > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Here’s what said oaf has to say on that very question; > > [Men may face felony charges after toppling Goblin Valley formation - The Salt Lake Tribune](http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57012279-78/rock-taylor-formation-hall.html.csp) > > That link also says they were acting as youth leaders for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as well as Boy Scout leaders. I watched the video, he had to push pretty hard. It was a senseless act of vandalism and not consistent with a stewardship role. They should be fined for vandalism and removed from the Scout role for providing a bad example and tarnishing the name of the organization. Community service and a little education about natural history couldn’t hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/18 "2013-10-19T13:57:03Z")
But if you look at it from the perspective of these chuckleheads, there wasn’t a cow in sight to be tipped, what else was there to do? Also, many of those rocks formations look a bit phallic. They’re just asking to be abused. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/19 "2013-10-19T14:03:01Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > They should be executed because, I gather from the thread title, they moved a rock. Kill them all. Or at least ruin their lives as I assume it was a really cool rock. Yeah, I’d be a lifer if they knew how many thing I’d knocked over when I was a kid. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/20 "2013-10-19T14:25:45Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > The fine should be to put the rock back where it was. With the same tools they used to topple it. A [Sisyphean](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus) task. Sounds good to me. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644.md?page=2)