# Utah Boy Scout rock toppling outrage **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 19, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644 "2013-10-19T12:20:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/201 "2013-10-22T23:16:12Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > eroded rock frequently looks like dirt. so does dirt. And if this was rock on rock then it would still be there. He wiggled it and it fell over. > [@Enginerd](#): > > I don’t understand why you’re highlighting Angels’ Landing here, either - it undermines your point more than it supports it. It’s neither chiseled nor hacked out of the mountain… > > ETA: ok, the switchbacks below the summit were cut into the rock - not in the pictures, so I didn’t immediately think of that. Still, management of the parks has evolved a bit since the 1920’s, and it’s ridiculous to use policies from that time in the context of what happens today. I highlighted it because I walked it and knew it was hacked out of a mountain. It’s relevant to the discussion and you don’t get to hand wave it away because it was done in 1926. The mountain is a substantial visual entity unto itself. What this guy did was push over a rock. You can go to any fast stream and see a zillion of then just like it. They’re rocks, not monumental displays of nature. The park service has to stipulate what can and cannot be disturbed in clear terms in order for them to fine or prosecute visitors for their actions. If this was as cut and dried as you appear to believe then they would have moved immediately against the person in question given that he video taped the evidence and posted it freely. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/202 "2013-10-22T23:22:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The park service has to stipulate what can and cannot be disturbed in clear terms in order for them to fine or prosecute visitors for their actions. If this was as cut and dried as you appear to believe then they would have moved immediately against the person in question given that he video taped the evidence and posted it freely. [From here.](http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_7643.shtml) > [@](#): > > According to the Goblin Valley State Park pamphlet it reads under the headline of vandalism, “it is unlawful to mutilate or deface any natural or constructed feature or structure.” ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/203 "2013-10-22T23:25:41Z")
Oh good, now we get to hear Magiver babble for three pages about how “tipping a rock over onto some dirt” doesn’t constitute “mutilating or defacing.” Seriously, I’m starting to think the guy is related to the perpetrators or something. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/204 "2013-10-22T23:33:03Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Oh good, now we get to hear Magiver babble for three pages about how “tipping a rock over onto some dirt” doesn’t constitute “mutilating or defacing.” > > Seriously, I’m starting to think the guy is related to the perpetrators or something. > [@kayaker](#): > > Fess up, the rock vandal is your uncle/cousin/stepfather. So far he has refused to deny my accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/205 "2013-10-22T23:55:58Z")
The warning against vandalism in the park brochure is upside down, which of course invalidates it, as we all know. [http://www.stateparks.utah.gov/sites/stateparks.utah.gov/files/GoblinValleyBrochure.pdf](http://www.stateparks.utah.gov/sites/stateparks.utah.gov/files/GoblinValleyBrochure.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/206 "2013-10-23T00:03:46Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The warning against vandalism in the park brochure is upside down, which of course invalidates it, as we all know. [http://www.stateparks.utah.gov/sites/stateparks.utah.gov/files/GoblinValleyBrochure.pdf](http://www.stateparks.utah.gov/sites/stateparks.utah.gov/files/GoblinValleyBrochure.pdf) I thought it was the [del]gold[/del] orange fringe that did it. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/207 "2013-10-23T01:10:15Z")
> [@CLee](#): > > I kind of hope he advances the idea even as a legal defense, but that’s a pretty heinous claim. Is that sort of thing condoned by the church when it isn’t PR liability? I mean, do Mormons regularly give testimony/ excuses that sounds like this? Because claims of divine intervention are what leads to monarchies and child brides and witch trials. It’s one thing to claim God called one to minister, it’s quite another to claim God called one to commit antisocial acts. Yeah, that’s a pretty serious problem in Mormonism. The founder, Joseph Smith took child brides and married his friends’ wives claiming that God had commanded him to do so. In this case, I’d say that yes, it would work for many Mormons because they believe that they live a higher law than the government. People will say that it’s a tragedy of sorts, that if the government officials had the same powers they they would understand that he received a _prompting_ from God and God knows best. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/208 "2013-10-23T03:28:05Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [From here.](http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_7643.shtml) Rock’s still there. Dirt’s still there. Just like all the other rocks and dirt surrounding it. The difference between what this guy did and what the park rangers did in my example is that this is reversible. The moral outrage over this is overblown and without perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/209 "2013-10-23T03:37:44Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [From here.](http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_7643.shtml)According to the Goblin Valley State Park pamphlet it reads under the headline of vandalism, “it is unlawful to mutilate or deface any natural or constructed feature or structure.” Now all they have to do is tattoo it on the ass of every ass that wanders in. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/210 "2013-10-23T03:45:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Rock’s still there. Dirt’s still there. Just like all the other rocks and dirt surrounding it. The difference between what this guy did and what the park rangers did in my example is that this is reversible. The moral outrage over this is overblown and without perspective. I’m really happy that you know more than the park rangers who were discussing this. Do you actually look at the links you post? A quote from the video on how to repair the damage. > [@tate Park Director Fred Hayes who oversees Utah's 43 state parks](#): > > I don’t know if you can. Actually, since it’s something which is painfully obvious to you, and only you in the world, and since you understand things better than the experts, why don’t you apply for a job running the universe? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/211 "2013-10-23T04:58:53Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > I’m really happy that you know more than the park rangers who were discussing this. > > Do you actually look at the links you post? A quote from the video on how to repair the damage. > > Actually, since it’s something which is painfully obvious to you, and only you in the world, and since you understand things better than the experts, why don’t you apply for a job running the universe? park rangers are experts at lifting stuff? News to me. And all I’ve done my entire adult life is airlift things like 10,000 lb generators and 100,000 lb machinery. This is block and tackle stuff that can be hiked in. Hell, I’ve got 20,000 lb straps sitting in my garage. Moving the rock is not a problem. The question is why would the park do it in the first place? It obviously wasn’t stable and shouldn’t be returned to it’s original state. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/212 "2013-10-23T05:07:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > park rangers are experts at lifting stuff? News to me. And all I’ve done my entire adult life is airlift things like 10,000 lb generators and 100,000 lb machinery. This is block and tackle stuff that can be hiked in. Hell, I’ve got 20,000 lb straps sitting in my garage. > > Moving the rock is not a problem. The question is why would the park do it in the first place? It obviously wasn’t stable and shouldn’t be returned to it’s original state. It was stable enough to sit there for 170 million years. Once it was pushed, the leverage and changed balance/position was too much for the thin connection. As long as it was left alone, it would have stayed there. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/213 "2013-10-23T05:22:49Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > It was stable enough to sit there for 170 million years. Once it was pushed, the leverage and changed balance/position was too much for the thin connection. As long as it was left alone, it would have stayed there. clearly it wasn’t very stable when it was pushed over. I posted a picture of the park from wiki. Literally tons of rocks that have fallen in the area. that’s what naturally occurs. This was clearly NOT a large formation of any worth like the pictures of hoodoos posted by others. It’s also not a pebble to be kicked around while walking. It’s a rock big enough to be pushed around and worthy of a fine or the cost of restoring it to what should be a more stable version of it’s original stature. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/214 "2013-10-23T09:53:48Z")
It was his dad or uncle. Only explanation at this point. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/215 "2013-10-23T10:20:09Z")
I think it was him. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/216 "2013-10-23T11:04:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Now all they have to do is tattoo it on the ass of every ass that wanders in. Every other ass who’s wandered in has managed to walk past that rock formation without toppling it over. It takes a really special asshole to require a tattooed admonition. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/217 "2013-10-23T12:20:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Now all they have to do is tattoo it on the ass of every ass that wanders in. Bend over. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/218 "2013-10-23T12:34:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > park rangers are experts at lifting stuff? News to me. And all I’ve done my entire adult life is airlift things like 10,000 lb generators and 100,000 lb machinery. This is block and tackle stuff that can be hiked in. Hell, I’ve got 20,000 lb straps sitting in my garage. > > Moving the rock is not a problem. The question is why would the park do it in the first place? It obviously wasn’t stable and shouldn’t be returned to it’s original state. you really do think you know more than the director, don’t you? You don’t think he could find someone to do that if it were that easy? You sound like my BIL, who thinks he’s the smartest person in the world. John, is that you? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/219 "2013-10-23T13:34:46Z")
The real MacGuyver would put the rock back with a Swiss army knife, a flashlight, and his backpack straps. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/220 "2013-10-23T13:52:43Z")
I’d like to see them prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I always thought that scouts were supposed to be respectful of nature. What next, sawing down a sequoia because you think it might fall some day? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644.md?page=12)