# Utah Boy Scout rock toppling outrage **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 19, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644 "2013-10-19T12:20:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/221 "2013-10-23T16:15:46Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > you really do think you know more than the director, don’t you? About lifting heavy objects? seriously? After dealing with it as a profession all my life? Yes TokyoBayer I know more about it than a park director. By many magnitudes more. It’s the kind of skill that allowed me to lift the roof trusses on my garage in place by myself. Go figure that I actually learned a thing or do doing it for 25 years. > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > You don’t think he could find someone to do that if it were that easy? I doubt he or she has a clue. Kinda like politicians who are hired based on popularity but can’t manage the programs they vote in. We’re seeing a very classic example of it right now in the health care roll out. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/222 "2013-10-23T16:20:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > About lifting heavy objects? seriously? After dealing with it as a profession all my life? Yes TokyoBayer I know more about it than a park director. By many magnitudes more. It’s the kind of skill that allowed me to lift the roof trusses on my garage in place by myself. Go figure that I actually learned a thing or do doing it for 25 years. You didn’t spend 25 years studying geology, did you? ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/223 "2013-10-23T18:00:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > clearly it wasn’t very stable when it was pushed over. You’re right, it probably only had another 100 to 250,00 years left before it toppled over on it’s own. Might as well just interfere with nature and take direct action now. It’s not like it was in a nature preserve or anything important like that. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/224 "2013-10-23T18:03:32Z")
This argument seems like a non-solvable diversion. I don’t think anyone’s mind is changing soon. Back on Topic - These guys have shown themselves to be idiots based on: - The act itself, in violation of State Park and, if you want to go there, Boy Scout rules (since they got fired from the BS) - Their shameless ignorance, as shown on the film and from their sharing of the film - Their lame attempt at an explanation which made their shameless idiocy on the video seem that much more idiotic I believe this is where most stand. Beyond that, let’s see what all this attention does in terms of the Park Service fining or punishing them. And lord knows, this internet shaming will live with them for years. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/225 "2013-10-23T18:28:21Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > I believe this is where most stand. Beyond that, let’s see what all this attention does in terms of the Park Service fining or punishing them. And lord knows, this internet shaming will live with them for years. Agreed. If I were them, I’d be a lot more worried about whatever Anonymous might be planning for me then what punishment the Park Service had in mind. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/226 "2013-10-23T18:34:46Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Agreed. > > If I were them, I’d be a lot more worried about whatever Anonymous might be planning for me then what punishment the Park Service had in mind. I certainly wouldn’t want to get on the wrong side of Anonymous, but i don’t think they spend their time going after every internet-video douchebag. They’re a bit more focused and selective than that with their targets. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/227 "2013-10-23T19:37:17Z")
They should do time for it. Just a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/228 "2013-10-23T19:42:10Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > And lord knows, this internet shaming will live with them for years. Do Bubbas feel shame, or do they turn adversity in to triumph by revelling in it? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/229 "2013-10-23T23:25:09Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I certainly wouldn’t want to get on the wrong side of Anonymous, but i don’t think they spend their time going after every internet-video douchebag. They’re a bit more focused and selective than that with their targets. Ehh, I dunno. If I were these douchebags, I’d be nervous. ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/230 "2013-10-24T01:27:16Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > And lord knows, this internet shaming will live with them for years. No shit. Imagine pushing over a friggin’ rock and five days later you’re the top story on [CNN.com](http://CNN.com). I almost feel sorry for these dingleberries. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/231 "2013-10-24T01:43:12Z")
I’m just glad that the rock didn’t fall back on the pusher. That would have made for one hell of a youtube vid. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/232 "2013-10-24T02:04:42Z")
Articles about vandalism in National Parks that predate this incident (like [this one](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/12/joshua-tree-national-park-graffiti_n_3070310.html) referencing mere tagging) talk about an up to $5000 fine and 6 months in jail. This is clearly a bigger deal than tagging, perhaps on par with cutting down a sequoia and has national attention for example setting (or alternatively demonstrating that there is very little price to be paid for such acts and inviting more of them). I am betting they’ll get near those levels. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/233 "2013-10-24T02:16:14Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I’m just glad that the rock didn’t fall back on the pusher. That would have made for one hell of a youtube vid. Would’ve taken his mind off his back injury. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/234 "2013-10-24T02:22:47Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > You didn’t spend 25 years studying geology, did you? No. That wasn’t your argument to what I said. > [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > You’re right, it probably only had another 100 to 250,00 years left before it toppled over on it’s own. Might as well just interfere with nature and take direct action now. It’s not like it was in a nature preserve or anything important like that. :rolleyes: Or it might have fallen during the next rain. Nobody is arguing that he should have pushed it over. Generally parks like that don’t want visitors disturbing anything. It’s their purview as to what gets modified. > [@WordMan](#): > > This argument seems like a non-solvable diversion. I don’t think anyone’s mind is changing soon. > > Back on Topic - These guys have shown themselves to be idiots based on: > > - The act itself, in violation of State Park and, if you want to go there, Boy Scout rules (since they got fired from the BS) > - Their shameless ignorance, as shown on the film and from their sharing of the film > - Their lame attempt at an explanation which made their shameless idiocy on the video seem that much more idiotic > > I believe this is where most stand. Beyond that, let’s see what all this attention does in terms of the Park Service fining or punishing them. And lord knows, this internet shaming will live with them for years. And that about sums it up. At best his desire to save the world from gravity should have taken him to a ranger’s station. The vitriol they received has risen to the level of death threats and this is beyond stupid. It’s a reversible event that the park system may or may not indulge in. IMO they should fine the person as punishment and tack on the cost of a repositioning of the rock in a safer manner if they chose to. It can be financially painful and a public example of what not to do. ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/235 "2013-10-24T02:28:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > This is clearly a bigger deal than tagging, perhaps on par with cutting down a sequoia and has national attention for example setting (or alternatively demonstrating that there is very little price to be paid for such acts and inviting more of them). No, not quite on a par with felling the mighty sequoia. The Giant Sequoias are protected by acts of Congress. About 30 years ago a dead one fell across the General’s Highway in Sequoia NP. It took an emergency act of Congress simply to get authorization to clear the road. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/236 "2013-10-24T02:28:21Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Would’ve taken his mind off his back injury. well when Og tells you to do something and you end up competing against other Darwin Award contestants it just ads to the theatrics of the hole being dug. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/237 "2013-10-24T02:42:17Z")
> [@Washoe](#): > > No, not quite on a par with felling the mighty sequoia. The Giant Sequoias are protected by acts of Congress. About 30 years ago a dead one fell across the General’s Highway in Sequoia NP. It took an emergency act of Congress simply to get authorization to clear the road. Okay. Perhaps on par with cutting down a large tree in a Park that is not protected by an Act of Congress. More than mere tagging a boulder. Yes, death threats are crazy. But top end of the guidelines for vandalism in the Parks, i.e. near $5000 and approaching 6 months in jail? This visible of a case? I would think likely closer to that than a mere $500 fine. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/238 "2013-10-24T02:56:00Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Okay. Perhaps on par with cutting down a large tree in a Park that is not protected by an Act of Congress. More than mere tagging a boulder. > > Yes, death threats are crazy. But top end of the guidelines for vandalism in the Parks, i.e. near $5000 and approaching 6 months in jail? This visible of a case? I would think likely closer to that than a mere $500 fine. Well the tree can’t be uncut so I don’t think it rises to that level. Tagging would cost less to repair than lifting it back into a stable position. Tagging is a deliberate act of vandalism where Beavis and Butthead can make a legitimate case that this was an accident waiting to happen. Again, not their job to fix it and the park system will want to make an example out of them. I think it more appropriate that they pay for repositioning it and then a fine on top of that. They’re already humiliated at this point which is self inflicted punishment of a pretty good magnitude. For all practical purposes they have had to stand in front of God and everybody with a sign stating how lame they are. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/239 "2013-10-24T02:57:13Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Okay. Perhaps on par with cutting down a large tree in a Park that is not protected by an Act of Congress. More than mere tagging a boulder. > > Yes, death threats are crazy. But top end of the guidelines for vandalism in the Parks, i.e. near $5000 and approaching 6 months in jail? This visible of a case? I would think likely closer to that than a mere $500 fine. Well the tree can’t be uncut so I don’t think it rises to that level. Tagging would cost less to repair than lifting it back into a stable position. Tagging is a deliberate act of vandalism where in this case Beavis and Butthead can make a legitimate case that this was an accident waiting to happen. Again, not their job to fix it and the park system will want to make an example out of them. I think it more appropriate that they pay for repositioning it and then a fine on top of that. They’re already humiliated at this point which is self inflicted punishment of a pretty good magnitude. For all practical purposes they have had to stand in front of God and everybody with a sign stating how lame they are. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/240 "2013-10-24T12:50:17Z")
So there are thousands of these rock formations in the park and they occasionally topple over on their own? This one was unstable and they stated in the original video they were doing it to protect other hikers. It was stupid and wrong, but certainly not something that should ruin these peoples’ lives. I think a $500 fine and some community service is entirely appropriate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644.md?page=13)