# Utah Boy Scout rock toppling outrage **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 19, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644 "2013-10-19T12:20:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/241 "2013-10-24T13:09:52Z")
So there are thousands of trees in a forest and they frequently fall over on their own? These rock formation formed over millions of years and are in a stable balance that have stood up to winds and storms. Putting it back in that exact position would not be very possible in my opinion, albeit one a bit more humble than Magiver’s. New trees grow on a time scale that is a blink of an eye compared to these formation. They are what we call a renewable resource. Sixty years there will be a new full grown tree. 60 years to a rock formation? Much bigger deal than cutting a tree. Even sequoias, protected by an Act of Congress, are transient flashes in time compared to these rock formations. Since we are now past guilt of a crime and into the sentencing phase … No, I do not believe they were actually thinking they were doing a good thing. Don’t buy it. It was vandalism. They did the crime, they do the time. On the scale of Park vandalism this is pretty high up there both in impact and in public awareness and possible impact on others if they get off too easy. 6 months and maximum fine allowed by law. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/242 "2013-10-24T13:28:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The vitriol they received has risen to the level of death threats and this is beyond stupid. **It’s a reversible event that the park system may or may not indulge in.** IMO they should fine the person as punishment and tack on the cost of a repositioning of the rock in a safer manner if they chose to. It can be financially painful and a public example of what not to do. You keep saying this (the bolded part), and it keeps not being true. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/243 "2013-10-24T13:54:53Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > This one was unstable and they stated in the original video they were doing it to protect other hikers. Again, it’s not generally agreed that the rock was unstable. (Yes, Glenn Taylor was able to rock it, but that doesn’t mean it was about to fall.) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/244 "2013-10-24T14:32:39Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > You keep saying this (the bolded part), and it keeps not being true. It couldn’t be more true. It’s not even arguable that a rock that size can easily be lifted a few feet. Why don’t you argue that the Pyramids couldn’t be built while you’re at it. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/245 "2013-10-24T14:38:06Z")
I’m not saying you can’t pick up the capstone and put it back on the pedestal. I’m saying that even if you do that, you have a fundamentally different formation than what was there before Jackass knocked it over. Hence, not “reversible.” ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/246 "2013-10-24T14:43:54Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > I’m not saying you can’t pick up the capstone and put it back on the pedestal. I’m saying that even if you do that, you have a fundamentally different formation than what was there before Jackass knocked it over. Hence, not “reversible.” And the soft stone pedestal that it sat on was almost certainly damaged by the rocking and the fall of the rock. It would need to be repaired with concrete/glues/pins whatever. It can never be put back in its original natural state. Natural being the key word. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/247 "2013-10-24T16:37:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > park rangers are experts at lifting stuff? News to me. And all I’ve done my entire adult life is airlift things like 10,000 lb generators and 100,000 lb machinery. This is block and tackle stuff that can be hiked in. Hell, I’ve got 20,000 lb straps sitting in my garage. > > Moving the rock is not a problem. The question is why would the park do it in the first place? It obviously wasn’t stable and shouldn’t be returned to it’s original state. Maybe you could call these guys up and offer your expert help. Something tells me you’d get along great! ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/248 "2013-10-24T18:27:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It couldn’t be more true. It’s not even arguable that a rock that size can easily be lifted a few feet. Why don’t you argue that the Pyramids couldn’t be built while you’re at it. You keep saying this. Is there any evidence that this knocked over goblin is easily reachable by truck/heavy machinery? Or are you volunteering to hike in your rig? Is there any place around the toppled rock to even set up such a rig? ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/249 "2013-10-24T20:52:00Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > You keep saying this. Is there any evidence that this knocked over goblin is easily reachable by truck/heavy machinery? Or are you volunteering to hike in your rig? Is there any place around the toppled rock to even set up such a rig? Shouldn’t be a problem! [http://search.yahoo.com/search;\_ylt=A0oG7iLYh2lSKGUAtPlXNyoA?ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-900-s&p=goblin+valley+state+park+utah&rs=0&fr2=rs-bottom](http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7iLYh2lSKGUAtPlXNyoA?ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-900-s&p=goblin+valley+state+park+utah&rs=0&fr2=rs-bottom) ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/250 "2013-10-24T23:17:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It couldn’t be more true. It’s not even arguable that a rock that size can easily be lifted a few feet. Why don’t you argue that the Pyramids couldn’t be built while you’re at it. The point you keep missing is that the rock was delicately balanced by forces of nature for millions of years. That delicate balance is what cannot, ever, be reproduced by a guy with a truck and a sling. May as well say you can crush the rock to sand, haul it to Hollywood, add some cement and water, put it in a mold, let it set then put it on a concrete block in the middle of a mall and “Bob’s your Uncle” it’s exactly the same as it was out in the wild. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/251 "2013-10-25T00:10:51Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > The point you keep missing is that the rock was delicately balanced by forces of nature for millions of years. That delicate balance is what cannot, ever, be reproduced by a guy with a truck and a sling. May as well say you can crush the rock to sand, haul it to Hollywood, add some cement and water, put it in a mold, let it set then put it on a concrete block in the middle of a mall and “Bob’s your Uncle” it’s exactly the same as it was out in the wild. There really are people who believe this, though. Those people are the reason we need parks like Goblin Valley. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/252 "2013-10-25T01:11:08Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > There really are people who believe this, though. Those people are the reason we need parks like Goblin Valley. And the reason we need to protect the parks from people who believe that. ---
**Author:** ![2gigch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2gigch1/32/3313_2.png) [@2gigch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2gigch1)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/253 "2013-10-25T01:23:38Z")
Just don’t see why there is much discussion on the issue. 1 - There are laws that say “Don’t destroy stuff in the park.” 2 - If you do destroy stuff in the park there are proscribed punishments. 3 - The people in question destroyed stuff in the park against the law. Therefore 4 - Apply punishment. Arguments about the relative worthiness of the objects and whatnot are immateriel. If you own something then you have the right (with few exceptions) to destroy it at your leisure. If you don’t own it then you don’t have that right. For being so dense as to not comprehend that simple idea I have a tendency to desire greater punishment for the perpetrators. This isn’t youthful ignorance, it’s deep seeded mature stupid that needs to be smacked down extra hard. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/254 "2013-10-25T01:35:39Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > The point you keep missing is that the rock was delicately balanced by forces of nature for millions of years. That delicate balance is what cannot, ever, be reproduced by a guy with a truck and a sling. May as well say you can crush the rock to sand, haul it to Hollywood, add some cement and water, put it in a mold, let it set then put it on a concrete block in the middle of a mall and “Bob’s your Uncle” it’s exactly the same as it was out in the wild. Why are you even bothering engaging with him? This is someone who spouts off bullshit such as [QUOTE=Magiver;16781341 I highlighted it because I walked it and knew it was hacked out of a mountain. It’s relevant to the discussion and you don’t get to hand wave it away because it was done in 1926.[/QUOTE] Seriously? :dubious: There have been absolutely no changes in value judgements in the last 87 years? Someone or some people did not do what they would do now, almost a hundred years ago, and that is “hand waving?” Someone who sticks their finger in their ears to not hear anyone is not having a discussion. As my attorney friend likes to say, at this point, it’s simply a lot of shouting over the back fence at the people next door. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/255 "2013-10-25T01:51:54Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Why are you even bothering engaging with him? This is someone who spouts off bullshit such as Seriously? :dubious: There have been absolutely no changes in value judgements in the last 87 years? Someone or some people did not do what they would do now, almost a hundred years ago, and that is “hand waving?” > > Someone who sticks their finger in their ears to not hear anyone is not having a discussion. As my attorney friend likes to say, at this point, it’s simply a lot of shouting over the back fence at the people next door. So true, it was the shtick that he, himself with a couple of ropes and pulleys could make it as good as new, no harm no foul, that drove me to post. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/256 "2013-10-25T01:58:54Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > The point you keep missing is that the rock was delicately balanced by forces of nature for millions of years. That delicate balance is what cannot, ever, be reproduced by a guy with a truck and a sling. May as well say you can crush the rock to sand, haul it to Hollywood, add some cement and water, put it in a mold, let it set then put it on a concrete block in the middle of a mall and “Bob’s your Uncle” it’s exactly the same as it was out in the wild. And you seem to miss that it’s a rock sitting on a pile of dirt. It was demonstrably unstable and like all the other rocks around it would have fallen. Picking it up and dropping it back where it was originally does not take away any of the scenic grandeur. I’m simply not buying the “every stone is sacred” rhetoric from a park system that routinely makes" improvements" so that visitors have access to it. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/257 "2013-10-25T02:17:54Z")
Huh, “Quit digging” seems to be a common admonition in this story. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/258 "2013-10-25T03:17:16Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Why are you even bothering engaging with him? This is someone who spouts off bullshit such as Seriously? :dubious: There have been absolutely no changes in value judgements in the last 87 years? Someone or some people did not do what they would do now, almost a hundred years ago, and that is “hand waving?” Value judgements in the last 87 years? Goblin Valley State Park was established in 1964. [Here](http://www.panoramio.com/photo/75301753?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com) [are](http://www.panoramio.com/photo/27989327?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com) [pictures](http://www.panoramio.com/photo/84697141?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com) of the [pristine](http://www.panoramio.com/photo/63593942?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com) [park](http://www.panoramio.com/photo/28479754?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com). Don’t want to hike anywhere? [Not a problem](http://www.panoramio.com/photo/6004144?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com). So while nobody is arguing he gets away with it there is an argument for reason and perspective. A reasonable fine is the appropriate response. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/259 "2013-10-25T03:42:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And you seem to miss that it’s a rock sitting on a pile of dirt. It was demonstrably unstable and like all the other rocks around it would have fallen. Picking it up and dropping it back where it was originally does not take away any of the scenic grandeur. > > I’m simply not buying the “every stone is sacred” rhetoric from a park system that routinely makes" improvements" so that visitors have access to it. It’s just a rock sitting on a pile of earth. All the great books in the world are only a pile of letters. The twin towers were just a pile of concrete and a bunch of steel. The pyramids are only slabs of stones aligned together. The rain forest is just a bunch of trees in a forest. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/260 "2013-10-25T03:45:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And you seem to miss that it’s a rock sitting on a pile of dirt. It was demonstrably unstable and like all the other rocks around it would have fallen. Picking it up and dropping it back where it was originally does not take away any of the scenic grandeur. > > I’m simply not buying the “every stone is sacred” rhetoric from a park system that routinely makes" improvements" so that visitors have access to it. It’s just a rock sitting on a pile of earth. All the great books in the world are only a pile of letters. The twin towers were just a pile of concrete and a bunch of steel. The pyramids are only slabs of stones aligned together. The rain forest is just a bunch of trees in a forest. You take the awe out of awesome. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644.md?page=14)