# Utah Boy Scout rock toppling outrage **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 19, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644 "2013-10-19T12:20:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Dragwyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dragwyr/32/2855_2.png) [@Dragwyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragwyr)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/281 "2013-10-28T18:37:56Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > Watching the video, the rock spins before falling away from him. The guy pushing it is lucky it didn’t crush his legs. > > It’s not their place to make that decision. They could have warned the Park Service. They should face charges. I’d expect a plea deal will be reached (one that’s closer to the $500 fine than $100,000). I agree completely. Whether or not the scout leader’s claim that the rock was not safe is irrelevant. The fact is that is was not their place to move it. If they truly thought it was unsafe they should have notified the proper authorities and then let them deal with it. My opinion is that they were being rowdy, reckless and boneheaded. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/282 "2014-02-01T02:55:57Z")
[Criminal charges finally filed.](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/31/22526382-charges-filed-in-toppling-of-ancient-utah-rock-formation?lite) I hope they both get time and the maximum fine. Fuck-heads. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/283 "2014-02-01T03:04:12Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > [Criminal charges finally filed.](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/31/22526382-charges-filed-in-toppling-of-ancient-utah-rock-formation?lite) > > I hope they both get time and the maximum fine. > > Fuck-heads. _Something_ needs to come down hard on them. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/284 "2014-02-01T06:04:55Z")
Five grand plus restitution to the state of Utah sounds good to me, will be the most expensive high-five these knuckleheads ever had. That said, not sure there’s too much point in jail time - to me taxpayer money there should be for keeping violent offenders off the streets and they don’t seem to be a public danger (to anyone but themselves). You might have a different take on that, though. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/285 "2014-02-01T14:05:19Z")
You really think they should be convicted felons . . . and for the rest of their lives suffer the consequences? The same implications that would have followed a conviction of sexual assault or murder? Seriously, for a non-violent act? For a few minutes of bad judgment more along the lines of a prank than a crime? Have a heart. Fine them, humiliate them (well, that’s been done already). But don’t make them felons. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/286 "2014-02-01T15:36:32Z")
A less serious but perhaps more embarrassing punishment might be to put up interpretive signs around the park–with big pictures of their faces and a caption that reads “Don’t Be Like These Assholes!” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/287 "2014-02-01T15:38:49Z")
Well, clearly it depends on whether you think there’s been a felony committed. If there has, they should be treated as felons by definition. If not, you follow their rather shaky logic…and establish a rather poor precedent. People make mistakes all the time and pay for them, moment of madness or not. Following the train of though of these reprobates, what’s to stop them performing whatever test they did to determine a goblin should be toppled (despite being totally unqualified to judge the danger) and going around booting down every goblin they felt like? Or, as **DSeid** said upthread, heading to a Redwood forest with a chainsaw with the excuse that they might fall down anyway? ETA; unless you mean a misdemeanour charge, but that seems rather light for destroying something that can’t be replaced. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/288 "2014-02-01T16:43:51Z")
> [@blondebear](#): > > A less serious but perhaps more embarrassing punishment might be to put up interpretive signs around the park–with big pictures of their faces and a caption that reads “Don’t Be Like These Assholes!” This is the best suggestion yet! I just watched the video of their justification. Disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/289 "2014-02-01T19:57:51Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > The same implications that would have followed a conviction of sexual assault or murder? There is a huge difference between being a felon and being a convicted sexual predator. There are degrees of felonies and many of the lower degrees can be removed from your record (espunged) in many states. ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/290 "2014-02-01T20:30:28Z")
I don’t know if jail is the right punishment. They should have to take the place of the rock and see how they like it when jerks try to tip them over. And the video should be shown as part of a “Don’t be stupid like these idiots” training film for scout masters. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/291 "2014-02-01T20:32:54Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > You really think they should be convicted felons . . . and for the rest of their lives suffer the consequences? The same implications that would have followed a conviction of sexual assault or murder? Seriously, for a non-violent act? For a few minutes of bad judgment more along the lines of a prank than a crime? > > Have a heart. Fine them, humiliate them (well, that’s been done already). But don’t make them felons. If they have clean records, they will likely be able to get the charge reduced, and suffer lesser penalties. This would be the first blot on their records, and a severe warning to them not to commit any future crimes. You only get off lightly once. The stigma does follow them, and should. It’s not quite the same as someone on the sex-offender register, and not quite the same as murder. It’s comparable to “good kids” who broke windows or set fire to a storage shed or cut down a tree. It’s a big enough crime not to be just waved off. They’ll still be able to get jobs in the future; they will just have to admit to having a criminal record during the job application process. This isn’t a Mark of Cain. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/292 "2014-02-01T20:51:01Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > . . . This would be the first blot on their records . . . A blot? [From Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony#United_States): > [@Wiki article on felonies](#): > > The consequences convicted felons face in most states include: > > Disenfranchisement (expressly permitted by the Fourteenth Amendment, as noted by the Supreme Court) > Exclusion from obtaining certain licenses, such as a visa, or professional licenses required to legally operate (making some vocations off-limits to felons) > Exclusion from purchase and possession of firearms, ammunition, and body armor > Ineligibility to serve on a jury > Ineligibility for government assistance or welfare, including being barred from federally funded housing > Deportation (if not a citizen) > Additionally, many job applications and rental applications ask about felony history, (with the exception of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts) and answering dishonestly on them can be grounds for rejecting the application, or termination if the lie is discovered after hire. This is because most bonding companies do not issue bonds to convicted felons, which effectively bars them from certain jobs. Additionally, most landlords do not rent to convicted felons due to the risk of legal liability if the renter commits another crime. > > It is legal to discriminate against felons in hiring decisions as well as the decision to rent housing to a person, so felons can face barriers to finding both jobs and housing. A common term of parole is to avoid associating with other felons. In some neighborhoods with high rates of felony conviction, this creates a situation where many felons live with a constant threat of being arrested for violating parole.[17] Many banks refuse service to convicted felons, and some states consider a felony conviction grounds for an uncontested divorce. Seems like a disproportionate punishment to me for what was essentially a stupid, immature prank where no violence or risk to another individual was involved. The “blot” as you so cavalierly call it has BIG consequences, potentially forever. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/293 "2014-02-01T21:16:19Z")
I guess they should have thought of all that before they committed a felony. They are easily old enough to know better. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/294 "2014-02-01T21:16:31Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Seems like a disproportionate punishment to me for what was essentially a stupid, immature prank where no violence or risk to another individual was involved. The “blot” as you so cavalierly call it has BIG consequences, potentially forever. It will almost certainly get plead down to a misdemeanor. No biggie. Then there’s the matter of the false personal injury claim from the minor car wreck that he was in. Maybe the guy should be blotted. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/295 "2014-02-02T02:48:51Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > You really think they should be convicted felons . . . and for the rest of their lives suffer the consequences? The same implications that would have followed a conviction of sexual assault or murder? Seriously, for a non-violent act? You might enjoy debating the some of the current laws against drugs, gambling, and prostitution. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/296 "2014-02-02T03:31:23Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > You might enjoy debating the some of the current laws against drugs, gambling, and prostitution. Basically, [I already did](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=705776). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/297 "2014-02-02T03:42:52Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > The “blot” as you so cavalierly call it has BIG consequences, potentially forever. And their actions have consequences, forever: that rock will never again sit the way it was. No one will ever again see that goblin perched as it had been for hundreds or thousands of years. I’d call that a BIG consequence, one that is definitely forever. So I think their punishment wouldn’t be out of line if it had far-reaching consequences, even ones that could potentially last the “forever” of the rest of their lives, if that’s what the court decides. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/298 "2014-02-02T05:16:49Z")
I agree they are starting out with a felony and expecting to bargain it down to a misdemeanor under whatever circumstances. Personally I’d be fine with it if they did become convicted felons. I have little use for such idiots. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/299 "2014-03-19T20:01:26Z")
[Idiots pleaded guilty to Class A misdemeanors and are getting court costs and fines that will be used to put up signs in the park.](http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57695025-78/goblin-hall-rock-state.html.csp) StG ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/300 "2014-03-19T20:12:13Z")
Not good enough. Assholes are basically getting off scot-free. > [@](#): > > Their pleas were held in abeyance, which means that if the men stay out of trouble for the next year and comply with conditions ordered by the court, the cases will be dismissed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644.md?page=16)