# Utah Boy Scout rock toppling outrage **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 19, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644 "2013-10-19T12:20:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/161 "2013-10-22T03:18:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > ?..It was as far from a national treasure as it could get… I feel the same way about Reagan, so I can knock overt his tombstone? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/162 "2013-10-22T03:22:12Z")
You see Magiver the thing is that you and I and these doofuses with our lack of actual expertise on geology do not get to make the call. There are these people called geologists who work for the Parks and who do get to make the call and the point of National Parks is to protect those features. I do not get the impression that even know what a hoodoo actually is but it does not matter - you and I and these random idiots are not entrusted to know or decide what is worth protecting and what is something that should be destroyed for safety or improvement. No one is more arrogant about their knowledge than the ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/163 "2013-10-22T03:25:46Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I feel the same way about Reagan, so I can knock overt his tombstone? Of course not. There is a difference between Regan’s voodoo economics and Magiver’s hoodoo eco-nock-it. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/164 "2013-10-22T03:30:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This wasn’t a hoodoo rock formation. It was a rock sitting on dirt from water erosion. It was as far from a national treasure as it could get. You can go to any national park and see the destruction of nature in the name of public improvement. > > So yes, get real. Serious question: Why not knock over [this one](https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=639&q=balanced+rock+utah&oq=balanced+rock&gs_l=img.1.2.0l10.105483.119648.0.129956.13.10.0.3.3.0.290.2005.0j8j2.10.0....0...1ac.1.29.img..0.13.2050.9peUoquS7CM)? [or this](https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=639&q=balanced+rock+in+the+garden+of+the+gods&oq=balanced+rock+&gs_l=img.1.7.0l10.65871.66996.1.77583.4.4.0.0.0.0.271.697.1j2j1.4.0....0...1ac.1.29.img..1.16.2555.CS0J229YFAU)? [or this](https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=639&q=delicate+arch&oq=delicate+&gs_l=img.1.0.0l10.69198.73747.2.77980.9.9.0.0.0.0.236.1806.0j5j4.9.0....0...1ac.1.29.img..1.25.4358.Uk4VhGnH3oY)? You can’t see why these places are special and need to be protected? Really? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/165 "2013-10-22T03:34:30Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > When we hiked up the Pyramid of the Moon in Teotihuacan, Mexico, there were machine-gun wielding guards patrolling the area. Our chaperone pointed them out to us. She said that the guards were there to protect the monuments against visitors who felt an overwhelming urge to do something really stupid, like scratching their names in one of the rocks. > > I was only 15 and I remember thinking, “Now, what kind of idiot would deface a national monument?” > > Well, now I know. The past year has been pretty bad on the image of Chinese tourists. There was the incident with the ancient Egyptian carvings and the DC paint vandal who went all misbehaving tourist inside the Episcopalian/Anglican cathedral. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/166 "2013-10-22T03:35:42Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > You see Magiver the thing is that you and I and these doofuses with our lack of actual expertise on geology do not get to make the call. There are these people called geologists who work for the Parks and who do get to make the call and the point of National Parks is to protect those features. I do not get the impression that even know what a hoodoo actually is but it does not matter - you and I and these random idiots are not entrusted to know or decide what is worth protecting and what is something that should be destroyed for safety or improvement. No one is more arrogant about their knowledge than the ignorant. Nothing was destroyed and I didn’t advocate that anybody do this. I just pointed out it wasn’t a national treasure in any sense of the word. It was literally a rock sitting on dirt. $500 is more than a sufficient fine for what they did. But, as you say, a geologist decides to cut a foot path into a mountain so tourists can march forth and appreciate nature then we give them a salary and a gun to protect and preserve the damage they caused. What’s needed in this case is perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/167 "2013-10-22T03:40:45Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Serious question: Why not knock over [this one](https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=639&q=balanced+rock+utah&oq=balanced+rock&gs_l=img.1.2.0l10.105483.119648.0.129956.13.10.0.3.3.0.290.2005.0j8j2.10.0....0...1ac.1.29.img..0.13.2050.9peUoquS7CM)? > > [or this](https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=639&q=balanced+rock+in+the+garden+of+the+gods&oq=balanced+rock+&gs_l=img.1.7.0l10.65871.66996.1.77583.4.4.0.0.0.0.271.697.1j2j1.4.0....0...1ac.1.29.img..1.16.2555.CS0J229YFAU)? > > [or this](https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=639&q=delicate+arch&oq=delicate+&gs_l=img.1.0.0l10.69198.73747.2.77980.9.9.0.0.0.0.236.1806.0j5j4.9.0....0...1ac.1.29.img..1.25.4358.Uk4VhGnH3oY)? > > You can’t see why these places are special and need to be protected? Really? those are actual hoodoos. They are rock formations top to bottom that weathered by wind erosion over time. This was a rock siting on DIRT along a path. How do you not understand this? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/168 "2013-10-22T03:51:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > those are actual hoodoos. They are rock formations top to bottom that weathered by wind erosion over time. This was a rock siting on DIRT along a path. How do you not understand this? Watch the video again. When the rock falls, you can see how the underside is shaped to match where it was resting. That was not just a dirt ledge. Regardless, it’s a protected _area_. That means _everything._ ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/169 "2013-10-22T03:52:20Z")
Okay let’s start with the most basic - a cite please that lower portion of the formation was DIRT and not stone. Is this the result of your expert analysis of the video? Because honestly I can find nothing else that describes what they knocked over other than a 170 million year old rock formation. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/170 "2013-10-22T04:22:15Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Okay let’s start with the most basic - a cite please that lower portion of the formation was DIRT and not stone. Is this the result of your expert analysis of the video? Because honestly I can find nothing else that describes what they knocked over other than a 170 million year old rock formation. You can see it’s sitting on dirt. If it was rock it would be… attached. It would also show the striations of weathering due to different layers of rock. Now how do you square that with the deliberate destruction of nature by the park service so that tourists can safely walk amongst every OTHER sacred rock. $500 is more than enough to cover the displacement of a rock. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/171 "2013-10-22T04:32:10Z")
[From Wiki.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goblin_Valley_State_Park) > [@](#): > > The distinct shape of these rocks comes from an erosion-resistant layer of rock atop softer sandstone. > [@](#): > > Hiking is permitted in the park, which features three marked trails. Sandstone looks very much like dirt. And you can’t just wander where you want. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/172 "2013-10-22T04:38:30Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [From Wiki.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goblin_Valley_State_Park) > Sandstone looks very much like dirt. > And you can’t just wander where you want. And what did the park service do in response to this? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/173 "2013-10-22T04:46:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And what did the park service do in response to this? [From here.](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/1019/Utah-Goblin-topplers-in-big-trouble.-Did-government-shutdown-play-a-role-video) > [@](#): > > Prosecutors in Emery County, Utah, are mulling potential felony charges against two Boy Scout leaders and another man who toppled a 170 million year old rock formation known as a “goblin,” at Goblin Valley State Park in Utah last week. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/174 "2013-10-22T04:57:36Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [From here.](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/1019/Utah-Goblin-topplers-in-big-trouble.-Did-government-shutdown-play-a-role-video) And how do you see a court case playing out? It’s going to be a lawyer holding up pictures of various size rocks and asking for a fine or the restoration of the rock to it’s original location. Or maybe they get to[pick one at random](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Goblin_Valley_2007.jpg) to restore world order. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/175 "2013-10-22T05:01:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And how do you see a court case playing out? It’s going to be a lawyer holding up pictures of various size rocks and asking for a fine or the restoration of the rock to it’s original location. Or maybe they get to[pick one at random](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Goblin_Valley_2007.jpg) to restore world order. What the hell does a future court case have to do with the discussion here? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/176 "2013-10-22T05:44:54Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > What the hell does a future court case have to do with the discussion here? I would think everything. The thread has produced everything emotion from great angst to meh. I’m closer to meh and think they should be fined. It’s not currently a court case. They’re “thinking” about it. But if they were to move in that direction I don’t see it traveling very far. it’s going to literally be a debate over the size of rocks and the breaking of park rules against wandering off the path. They could place the rock back on it’s pile of dirt but I suspect the park service doesn’t really want anything dangerous along the walkway so I think they will be fined for breaking park rules and that will be the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![knel3030](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecae2f/32.png) [@knel3030](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/knel3030)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/177 "2013-10-22T06:46:09Z")
I can’t believe what Lucas did to star wars with the phantom menace. He should be legally obligated to remake the newer trilogy using only the budget he used for the original trilogy - adjusted for inflation of course. A big rock that could be pushed over by a single human is one that’s about to tumble over soon enough, possibly onto children or the elderly. They should have notified rangers; now the nation is more ethically aware on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/178 "2013-10-22T06:49:45Z")
From his > [@](#): > > Dave Hall posted on Facebook, “I’ll take my chances with the cops rather then (sic) my conscience after hearing a family was crushed to death by a rock I was prompted to move.” For people who don’t speak Mormonese, being “prompted” is is code word for having the Holy Ghost tell you what to do. We’re also told that a little faith will move mountains. That moving mountains may expose insurance fraud wasn’t covered in Sunday school, though ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/179 "2013-10-22T07:52:01Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Regardless, it’s a protected _area_. That means _everything._ True that. When I lived in Zion I used to snarl at people just for picking up rocks and throwing them. I once read my own mother the Riot Act for trying to smuggle a pine cone out of Sequoia NP. ---
**Author:** ![CLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@CLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLee)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644/180 "2013-10-22T10:27:35Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > From his > > For people who don’t speak Mormonese, being “prompted” is is code word for having the Holy Ghost tell you what to do. > > We’re also told that a little faith will move mountains. That moving mountains may expose insurance fraud wasn’t covered in Sunday school, though Oh my god, are you serious? Will the church actually warm up to this defense or distance itself from the shenanigans? > [@knel3030](#): > > I can’t believe what Lucas did to star wars with the phantom menace. He should be legally obligated to remake the newer trilogy using only the budget he used for the original trilogy - adjusted for inflation of course. > > A big rock that could be pushed over by a single human is one that’s about to tumble over soon enough, possibly onto children or the elderly. They should have notified rangers; now the nation is more ethically aware on the matter. People afraid of rocks should quite literally never leave the safety of the indoors and should absolutely refrain from attempting to alter the alien environment. If you are the type who isn’t bothered by the defacement of natural monuments, then the natural monuments aren’t _for_ you. Stay indoors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-boy-scout-rock-toppling-outrage/671644.md?page=10)