# Utah county wants to split **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 10, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292 "2019-02-10T19:16:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/21 "2019-02-10T23:50:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “Apartheid”? At least you were right about one thing: you don’t know jack about this issue. I know that liberals aren’t the problem here. So that’s one thing. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/22 "2019-02-10T23:56:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “take their tax base with them” seems to be the chief concern of the liberals here. From the link. > [@](#): > > The proponent of this plan, state Rep. Phil Lyman, isn’t just a\*\* Republican legislator.\*\* He was also a San Juan County commissioner **who chose to run for the state legislature in 2018 after his illegally gerrymandered district was struck down**. Lyman claims he’s not necessarily in favor of secession and merely thinks it should be debated, but **he’s consistently (and baselessly) rejected the court’s ruling striking down the districts as illegitimate.** That’s your definition of a “liberal”? Ah, the Party of “Law and Order”. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/23 "2019-02-11T00:24:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “take their tax base with them” seems to be the chief concern of the liberals here. So the whites in the county have been running the entire county essentially forever, and neither they nor the Navajos tried to secede. Do I have that right? But the moment the whites lose an election, they want to secede from the county. Maybe you can explain why this isn’t the over-the-top bad-faith response that it looks like it is. If they can’t run the game, they’re gonna take their ball and leave. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/24 "2019-02-11T00:36:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “Apartheid”? At least you were right about one thing: you don’t know jack about this issue. Please help us understand the issues, then. All I’ve got to go on is the Daily Kos article, which quotes two GOP politicians who seem to favour splitting the county. I’m wondering where the liberals you mention come into the discussion? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/25 "2019-02-11T01:19:05Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Please help us understand the issues, then. All I’ve got to go on is the Daily Kos article, which quotes two GOP politicians who seem to favour splitting the county. I’m wondering where the liberals you mention come into the discussion? What is a “liberal” in Utah? [Salt Lake Trib story](https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2019/02/06/state-lawmaker-says-san/) might give a better feel for the subtleties. Apparently some SJ County residents feel that having two Navajo Democrats on the three member commission is horrifying. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/26 "2019-02-11T03:09:18Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Please help us understand the issues, then. All I’ve got to go on is the Daily Kos article, which quotes two GOP politicians who seem to favour splitting the county. I’m wondering where the liberals you mention come into the discussion? You first. You are the one who dragged “liberals” into this thread. Why don’t you point out where you got your weird idea? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/27 "2019-02-11T03:20:38Z")
I’m pretty sure “liberals” were invoked in the 2nd post. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/28 "2019-02-11T03:27:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “take their tax base with them” seems to be the chief concern of the liberals here. Eh? It’s right there in **Hurricane Ditka’s** post #2. I read it that he was saying that it was Liberals in Utah who are upset. If that’s not what he was saying, what was he saying? I am simply having trouble following the exchange and am seeking clarification? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/29 "2019-02-11T03:31:27Z")
Then, in post 7, **CarnalK** also seeks clarification: did **HD** mean “liberals here on the board,” or when he said “here” did he mean in Utah? > [@CarnalK](#): > > HD lives in Utah I believe, so I assume that’s what he means by “here”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/30 "2019-02-11T03:34:27Z")
And finally, in post # 17, **HD** quote **CarnalK** ’s post and seems to me to confirm that by “here” he’s talking about liberals in Utah: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This is correct. So I’m still puzzled by his comment, as I’ve read the two articles posters have linked to, and haven’t found any specific mention of liberals, only Republicans? ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/31 "2019-02-11T05:56:41Z")
n/m ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/32 "2019-02-11T06:26:28Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/33 "2019-02-11T07:20:36Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > So the whites in the county have been running the entire county essentially forever, and neither they nor the Navajos tried to secede. Do I have that right? 1. If you think the San Juan County government is “running the entire county”, you clearly don’t understand the dynamic there. Here’s a breakdown of land ownership/administration in San Juan County: > [@](#): > > [The majority of the land (approx. 72%) is administered by federal and tribal agencies. Land ownership/administration within San Juan County is broken down as follows (acres, % of total): BLM 2,074,247, 41%; Indian Reservation 1,220,846, 23%; National Parks Service 587,375, 10%; U.S.F.S 450,549, 9%; State of Utah 406,415, 8%; Private 406,367, 8%, and Private Indian Trust Funds 25,117, 1%.](https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/ut/technical/dma/nri/?cid=nrcs141p2_034124) How much authority do you imagine the San Juan County Commission has over the Navajo Nation lands, or the BLM lands, or the National Parks? AFAIK, San Juan County is the 2nd largest county in the whole _country_, with a shitload of intersecting land management issues. If it chose to subdivide a bit, that would not be a bad thing IMHO. 1. Why would the Navajos want to secede? They want to prevent the non-Native portions from seceding, for the “tax base”. Perhaps a brief discussion on secession is in order. If, say, Quebec wanted to secede from Canada, or Scotland from the UK, who thinks it appropriate for the rest of Canada, or the rest of the UK to have the power to veto that decision? What about when a nation wants to leave the EU? Should the rest of the EU get to vote on that too? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/34 "2019-02-11T07:26:20Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And finally, in post # 17, **HD** quote **CarnalK** ’s post and seems to me to confirm that by “here” he’s talking about liberals in Utah: > > So I’m still puzzled by his comment, as I’ve read the two articles posters have linked to, and haven’t found any specific mention of liberals, only Republicans? You read the SLTrib article posted? It contains “specific mention” of a number of (Utah) Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/35 "2019-02-11T07:32:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > 1. If you think the San Juan County government is “running the entire county”, you clearly don’t understand the dynamic there. Here’s a breakdown of land ownership/administration in San Juan County: > > How much authority do you imagine the San Juan County Commission has over the Navajo Nation lands, or the BLM lands, or the National Parks? > > AFAIK, San Juan County is the 2nd largest county in the whole _country_, with a shitload of intersecting land management issues. If it chose to subdivide a bit, that would not be a bad thing IMHO. Not sure how any of this makes a difference. This thread isn’t about how the Federal government owns large chunks of Western states. > [@](#): > > 1. Why would the Navajos want to secede? They want to prevent the non-Native portions from seceding, for the “tax base”. OK, so you’re just repeating what you said up top. My response to it still stands, awaiting your rebuttal, if any. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/36 "2019-02-11T07:37:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Not sure how any of this makes a difference. This thread isn’t about how the Federal government owns large chunks of Western states. OK, so you’re just repeating what you said up top. My response to it still stands, awaiting your rebuttal, if any. Care to lay out your position on secession in general? My view is that Quebec, Scotland, and the UK ought to be free to “take their ball and leave” if they so choose (and so should portions of San Juan County). What do you think about that though? Do you have a position that can be reasonably applied to all of those situations? Is there some nuance in San Juan County that merits a different set of principles in your opinion? Or do you always oppose secession? Or just when it’s Republicans considering it? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/37 "2019-02-11T12:34:39Z")
I’m bowing out of this thread. Too much hostility just for asking questions to try to understand what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/38 "2019-02-11T12:37:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You first. > You are the one who dragged “liberals” into this thread. Why don’t you point out where you got your weird idea? > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Eh? It’s right there in **Hurricane Ditka’s** post #2. I read it that he was saying that it was Liberals in Utah who are upset. If that’s not what he was saying, what was he saying? I am simply having trouble following the exchange and am seeking clarification? Do we need to let the admins know there’s something screwy going on with the quote feature, or did you both just happen to make the same quoting error one after the other? It seems that neither of you is responding to the post in the quote box, so I’m confused. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/39 "2019-02-11T12:45:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Care to lay out your position on secession in general? My view is that Quebec, Scotland, and the UK ought to be free to “take their ball and leave” if they so choose (and so should portions of San Juan County). What do you think about that though? Do you have a position that can be reasonably applied to all of those situations? Is there some nuance in San Juan County that merits a different set of principles in your opinion? Or do you always oppose secession? Or just when it’s Republicans considering it? JAQing is neither making an argument nor rebutting another’s. Do you have any intention of explaining how your first contribution to this thread has anything to do with the topic at hand? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/40 "2019-02-11T12:48:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Care to lay out your position on secession in general? My view is that Quebec, Scotland, and the UK ought to be free to “take their ball and leave” if they so choose (and so should portions of San Juan County). What do you think about that though? I can understand arguments why Scotland or Quebec may want to secede. The only reason apparent to me why the white Republican minority may want to secede is that their illegal grip on power has been struck down as racist. If you want to add some good reasons why this is not as simple as some crusty white dudes getting upset about not being able to win crooked elections anymore, please go ahead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=3)