# Utah county wants to split **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 10, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292 "2019-02-10T19:16:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/41 "2019-02-11T13:11:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Care to lay out your position on secession in general? My view is that Quebec, Scotland, and the UK ought to be free to “take their ball and leave” if they so choose (and so should portions of San Juan County). What do you think about that though? Your view lost the American Civil War so there’s no point discussing what other countries might do about secession. Comparing a county splitting up with a country doing so is kind of dumb anyway, just way too many qualitative and quantitative differences. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/42 "2019-02-11T13:39:08Z")
A good move. If an ethnic minority within a jurisdiction would like to get out from under a majority not aligned with them, I encourage it. This goes for if the ethnic minority is black, Native American, Jewish, Palestinian, or white. Perhaps this last one makes me a white supremacist to some. Same thing goes for non-ethnic minorities including ideological minorities, cultural minorities, or food-preference minorities. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/43 "2019-02-11T13:42:28Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Your view lost the American Civil War so there’s no point discussing what other countries might do about secession. Comparing a county splitting up with a country doing so is kind of dumb anyway, just way too many qualitative and quantitative differences. So political disputes should be settled by the results of brute force conflicts 150 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/44 "2019-02-11T13:46:21Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I can understand arguments why Scotland or Quebec may want to secede. The only reason apparent to me why the white Republican minority may want to secede is that their illegal grip on power has been struck down as racist. > > If you want to add some good reasons why this is not as simple as some crusty white dudes getting upset about not being able to win crooked elections anymore, please go ahead. Perhaps the whites do not agree with the political policies of the election winners? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/45 "2019-02-11T13:58:02Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > A good move. If an ethnic minority within a jurisdiction would like to get out from under a majority not aligned with them, I encourage it. While this sounds vaguely reasonable on the surface, it stinks to high heaven when the “get out from under” movement starts immediately after losing power for the first time in decades. Your oppressors have barely had a chance to take roll call, ferchrissake. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/46 "2019-02-11T13:59:21Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Perhaps the whites do not agree with the political policies of the election winners? Looking back on some history of the county, it appears one of the political positions of those who ended up being election winners was “please let us have an ambulance to get sick people to the hospital,” which was opposed by the Powers that Be. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/47 "2019-02-11T14:03:31Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So political disputes should be settled by the results of brute force conflicts 150 years ago. THIS political dispute HAS been settled by brute force 150 years ago. Or did I miss something? Can a state just vote to secede from the U.S.? But my main point was that the lower down the governance level you go, the more ridiculous allowing free secession is. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/48 "2019-02-11T14:11:45Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > While this sounds vaguely reasonable on the surface, it stinks to high heaven when the “get out from under” movement starts immediately after losing power for the first time in decades. > > Your oppressors have barely had a chance to take roll call, ferchrissake. It doesn’t appear to be an issue that was immediately raised after the results of the most recent election though. [This article from 1997](https://www.deseretnews.com/article/570164/Splitting-San-Juan-could-cripple-Navajos-economically.html) talks about splitting this county, and a study that was conducted to look at the impact: > [@](#): > > If San Juan was split along the reservation’s border, the new south county would have $2.1 million - $434 per person - in operating capital in the year 2000, the study projected. The northern county would have almost four times that amount - $8.1 million. > > Without a split, San Juan County would have $801 per person. > [@](#): > > The 16-member committee, made up of American Indians and Anglos, met five times in 1995 and 1996 to discuss this issue. Its last act will be to decide what to do with the report, Lewis said. > > Mark Maryboy, a San Juan County commissioner and the driving force behind the commissioning of the study, could not be reached for comment Wednesday. > > There are some other factors complicating the issue: > > - A new county would have to establish, finance and maintain a sheriff’s office. > > But law enforcement jurisdictional issues in counties with Indian reservations are complex. Tribal police would be required to deal with the crime on the reservation unless an agreement was made with the county sheriff’s office, according to the report. > > - San Juan County has approximately $20 million in reserve funds. It is unclear how that money would be divvied up. It could be economics driven, or it could be race driven, or some combination. But based on some of the history, it seems clear that the economics are at least part of the motivating issues. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/49 "2019-02-11T14:15:40Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > JAQing is neither making an argument nor rebutting another’s. Do you have any intention of explaining how your first contribution to this thread has anything to do with the topic at hand? It’s not really JAQ when one of my sentences starts out “My view is”, is it? Anyways, here’s a quote from the SLTrib article: > [@](#): > > Reps. Patrice Arent and Jennifer Dailey-Provost said they’d be nervous about zeroing in on a single part of the county formation process without taking a more holistic look at it. For instance, they wondered about letting communities split off without giving those left behind a chance to weigh in on the changes, which might have a deep impact on their tax base and the financial health of their local government. Care to guess which political party Patrice Arent and the woman with the hyphenated last name belong to? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/50 "2019-02-11T14:34:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Care to guess which political party Patrice Arent and the woman with the hyphenated last name belong to? Who cares? Your knee-jerk criticism of non-conservatives is the least important issue here. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/51 "2019-02-11T14:47:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Who cares? Your knee-jerk criticism of non-conservatives is the least important issue here. Especially when the offence of hyphenating a last name has occurred. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/52 "2019-02-11T14:57:31Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > While this sounds vaguely reasonable on the surface, it stinks to high heaven when the “get out from under” movement starts immediately after losing power for the first time in decades. > > Your oppressors have barely had a chance to take roll call, ferchrissake. Yeah they’re probably unsavory people, we should keep them in our community. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Looking back on some history of the county, it appears one of the political positions of those who ended up being election winners was “please let us have an ambulance to get sick people to the hospital,” which was opposed by the Powers that Be. Irrelevant. Is the difference strictly racial or is there a political difference? Either you let them go, or you force them to stay and influence your political system. > [@CarnalK](#): > > THIS political dispute HAS been settled by brute force 150 years ago. Or did I miss something? Can a state just vote to secede from the U.S.? > > But my main point was that the lower down the governance level you go, the more ridiculous allowing free secession is. Should we say that brute force confrontations determine policy right now? Those people are all dead. “Free secession”? Is there a version of secession that is reasonable? Should battered wives be permitted to secede from marriages? That’s pretty low on the “governance level”. Should people be allowed to flee the oppressive HOA? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/53 "2019-02-11T15:02:34Z")
If you don’t permit secession on a low level, you probably won’t permit it on a higher level. There is very little cost to allowing a “secession” like this. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/54 "2019-02-11T15:05:47Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > “Free secession”? Is there a version of secession that is reasonable? Should battered wives be permitted to secede from marriages? That’s pretty low on the “governance level”. Should people be allowed to flee the oppressive HOA? Those sound like emigration issues. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/55 "2019-02-11T15:26:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Those sound like emigration issues. So there is no level of secession you would tolerate, no matter how innocuous and trivial. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/56 "2019-02-11T15:38:28Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So there is no level of secession you would tolerate, no matter how innocuous and trivial. I’m still not over Pangaea splitting up. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/57 "2019-02-11T15:52:02Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So there is no level of secession you would tolerate, no matter how innocuous and trivial. If you scroll back to what **CarnalK** quotes in post #15, you’ll see that what’s required for the split is mutual agreement by both sides. And that’s a standard I’d be happy to support. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/58 "2019-02-11T15:53:10Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I’m still not over Pangaea splitting up. I think I’ve still got a worn-out “Reunite Gondwanaland” t-shirt in the back of the closet. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/59 "2019-02-11T16:09:00Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Irrelevant. Is the difference strictly racial or is there a political difference? Since a judge has found that the gerrymandering was a violation of the Civil Rights Act, for now I’m going to stick with the the judge’s view that race is a critical factor in the dispute. If I hear some new information that is more enlightening than “let’s blame liberals because taxes” or “secession for everyone, all the time!” then I’m perfectly happy to reconsider my opinion. (By the way, is there any irony that the Civil War lost causers blamed the whole war on taxes rather than race, and now we’re hearing from certain quarters that the Utah issue is just about taxes rather than race? I’m not sure, but I thought I’d throw the question out there.) ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/60 "2019-02-11T16:16:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Perhaps a brief discussion on secession is in order. If, say, Quebec wanted to secede from Canada, or Scotland from the UK, who thinks it appropriate for the rest of Canada, or the rest of the UK to have the power to veto that decision? What about when a nation wants to leave the EU? Should the rest of the EU get to vote on that too? **HD** , Imagine 50 of your nearest neighbors move out and are steadily replaced with super-liberal granola hipsters, with “Ocasio-Cortez 2024” bumper stickers on their electric vehicles as they drive in. They all decide that the local Utah county is too conservative, so they want your neighborhood to secede and form its own locally run enclave, with huge taxes on meat, dairy, gasoline, gluten, and GMO produce. Based on their arbitrarily selected borders which includes your house, they have more than 50% of the vote to secede. Who thinks its appropriate for the rest of the county to have the power to veto that decision? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=4)