# Utah county wants to split **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 10, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292 "2019-02-10T19:16:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/81 "2019-02-11T19:39:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > AFAIK, San Juan County is the 2nd largest county in the whole _country_ According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_counties_in_the_United_States_by_area), San Juan County ranks 24th in area among the counties in the country. San Bernardino County in California, the largest county by area, is about 2 1/2 times larger. (Alaska, by the way, has ‘boroughs’, rather than counties. 10 of those 22 boroughs are larger than San Bernardino County.) > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There are lots of “divides” in San Juan County. A major one is certainly Navajo vs white. I’m uncertain how you’d choose to define “the main divide”. There are also the usual divisions of wealth, gender, politics, age, etc that are found in virtually every other county. This entire thread is about the divide between Navajos and whites. In a county where American Indians have a slight [majority](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/sanjuancountyutah/PST040217) over whites, the issue was that whites historically have had a 2 out of 3 majority on the county commission. This was reversed after the last election, which occurred after the districts were redrawn. So, yes, for the purpose of the discussion in this thread, I think we can all agree that ‘the main divide’ is Navajo vs white. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/82 "2019-02-11T19:49:09Z")
I don’t see how the former gerrymandering is relevant. If the districts had always been drawn this way, would you allow secession? I also don’t see how the racism of the people is relevant. If they weren’t racist would you allow the secession? Just a bunch of sanctimonious BS if you ask me. Will you force these people into your jurisdiction or not? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/83 "2019-02-11T19:53:13Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_counties_in_the_United_States_by_area), San Juan County ranks 24th in area among the counties in the country. San Bernardino County in California, the largest county by area, is about 2 1/2 times larger. (Alaska, by the way, has ‘boroughs’, rather than counties. 10 of those 22 boroughs are larger than San Bernardino County.) … Yes, thank you for this correction. It seems that [the USDA](https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/ut/technical/dma/nri/?cid=nrcs141p2_034124) is not a reliable source of information. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/84 "2019-02-11T20:01:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I don’t see how the former gerrymandering is relevant. If the districts had always been drawn this way, would you allow secession? > I also don’t see how the racism of the people is relevant. If they weren’t racist would you allow the secession? > > Just a bunch of sanctimonious BS if you ask me. Will you force these people into your jurisdiction or not? Man, you’re quick to talk about how racist liberals are, now you’re running away from the topic faster than Rand Paul could run from his neighbor. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/85 "2019-02-11T20:02:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **HurricaneDitka** : > > I think one of us is misunderstanding something. Who do you think you’re paraphrasing here with your “So, in other words, …”? Me? Yes, you. You just made a post pointing out that, even with the large number of Native Americans, the county was still Republican by a significant margin, and so there was no reason for there to be a partisan gerrymander. So I pointed out that that means that the gerrymander must have been for other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/86 "2019-02-11T20:05:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, you. You just made a post pointing out that, even with the large number of Native Americans, the county was still Republican by a significant margin, and so there was no reason for there to be a partisan gerrymander. So I pointed out that that means that the gerrymander must have been for other reasons. I don’t think there was a gerrymander at all. I disagree with the Obama-appointed judge on that point. The county votes ~60% Republican and Republicans had 2 of the the 3 County Commission seats. How many seats do you think that 60-40 split should have resulted in being controlled by each party? You think 2 Dems vs 1 Rep is the non-gerrymandered result? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/87 "2019-02-11T20:12:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I disagree with the Obama-appointed judge on that point. Well there’s a surprise ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/88 "2019-02-11T20:23:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I disagree with the Obama-appointed judge on that point. You disagree with the Republican judge that was nominated at the recommendation of Orrin Hatch, and who Mike Lee fawned over as “a preeminently qualified lawyer with a very distinguished career both within and outside the legal profession. He’ll be an outstanding judge, and I look forward to his confirmation.” Nice try with the ad hominem, bud. > [@](#): > > The county votes ~60% Republican and Republicans had 2 of the the 3 County Commission seats. How many seats do you think that 60-40 split should have resulted in being controlled by each party? You think 2 Dems vs 1 Rep is the non-gerrymandered result? Here is a different take on your “but Republicans control the county and a judge made it into a Democrat one” line of argument: [Gerrymandering in San Juan County, Utah and Discrimination Against The Navajo - MCI Maps | Election Data Analyst | Election Targeting | FL](http://mcimaps.com/gerrymandering-in-san-juan-county-utah-how-navajo-voters-have-been-discriminated-against/) Basically, it shows that the new boundaries created one strongly Republican district, one strongly Democratic district, and one that seems to be more or less a swing district. That sounds mostly fair to me, but I’m not tied to any outcome in this county so long as the borders drawn aren’t racist and are generally fair. But like **Chronos** , I can’t figure out why you seem to be pursuing the line of “it isn’t politics” (my words) when the only other explanation that seems apparent is race. Further, I found this rather shocking review of the context of the Native American population in this county: [How a Utah county silenced Native American voters — and how Navajos are fighting back - High Country News](https://www.hcn.org/issues/48.10/how-a-utah-county-silenced-native-american-voters-and-how-navajos-are-fighting-back) Some highlights, which are quite sickening: > [@](#): > > Sixteen years ago, when Jones joined the board of the Utah Navajo Health System, he realized his neighbors were dying because the closest ambulances — the county’s, in Blanding, and the tribe’s, in Kayenta, Arizona — were an hour away “on a good day.” So Jones asked the county commission if one of San Juan’s ambulances could be housed in a garage in Montezuma Creek. From there, it would take half the time to rush an elder suffering a heart attack to medical care. > > But the county wasn’t interested. Over the next decade, Jones says, he and other health advocates repeatedly tried to get the commission to improve ambulance service on the reservation. But while the sole Navajo commissioner was supportive, the two white commissioners were usually not. . . . . > > In 1957, Utah became one of the last states in the nation to grant Native Americans the right to vote, doing so only after being forced by a federal judge. Still, it took another three decades for the first Native Americans to be elected in San Juan County. It wasn’t for lack of trying — county clerks kept Native candidates off the ballot, refused to register Native voters, and held written elections in English, disenfranchising those who were illiterate or didn’t speak the language… . . > > Current County Commissioner Bruce Adams, who was elected in 2004, says allegations he and other elected officials ignored Native Americans’ needs are “100 percent false.” Yet as recently as 1995, the county denied that it was responsible for educating Navajo children; it built a high school in the town of Navajo Mountain only after yet another judge ordered it to do so. A U.S. Department of Justice official who later reviewed disparities in course offerings between the county’s white and Native schools said in 1997 that he “hadn’t seen anything so bad since the ’60s in the South.” So let’s just place the blame where it truly belongs: Obama. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/89 "2019-02-11T20:56:13Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes that’s a bit silly, but ok. “People shouldn’t be allowed to have the outcome they want” seems like a silly argument for a libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/90 "2019-02-11T21:29:18Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > “People shouldn’t be allowed to have the outcome they want” seems like a silly argument for a libertarian. Only if you have the most facile understanding of the philosophy imaginable. The “outcome they want” has to do with forcing other individuals into an involuntary political jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/91 "2019-02-11T21:31:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Man, you’re quick to talk about how racist liberals are, now you’re running away from the topic faster than Rand Paul could run from his neighbor. Cute non-answer. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/92 "2019-02-11T21:31:16Z")
A county that’s 60% Republican, with fair elections, I would expect Republicans to usually control two of the three seats, but sometimes only one. This election does not refute that. The current situation might or might not be a partisan gerrymander in favor of the Democrats. A county that’s majority Native American, with fair elections, I would expect the Native Americans to usually control two of the three seats, but sometimes only one. All of the history of this district, when there has consistently been only one Native American seat, does refute that. The previous situation was definitely a racial gerrymander in favor of the white people, and shouting “It’s not a partisan gerrymander!” means absolutely nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/93 "2019-02-11T21:33:47Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Cute non-answer. I don’t think YOUR questions are relevant. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/94 "2019-02-11T21:41:37Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Only if you have the most facile understanding of the philosophy imaginable. The “outcome they want” has to do with forcing other individuals into an involuntary political jurisdiction. Because, it was nothing like anything they themselves had ever experienced. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/95 "2019-02-11T21:42:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Only if you have the most facile understanding of the philosophy imaginable. The “outcome they want” has to do with forcing other individuals into an involuntary political jurisdiction. I’m curious what you think the alternative is: Is it bands of freemen on the land, bravely not paying taxes to anyone? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/96 "2019-02-11T21:47:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > A county that’s 60% Republican, with fair elections, I would expect Republicans to usually control two of the three seats, but sometimes only one. This election does not refute that. The current situation might or might not be a partisan gerrymander in favor of the Democrats. > > A county that’s majority Native American, with fair elections, I would expect the Native Americans to usually control two of the three seats, but sometimes only one. All of the history of this district, when there has consistently been only one Native American seat, does refute that. The previous situation was definitely a racial gerrymander in favor of the white people, and shouting “It’s not a partisan gerrymander!” means absolutely nothing. The Navajo do not vote at the same rate as the non-Navajo population. That’s the main reason why we’ve got a county that’s ~51% American Indian population but only 40% Democrat votes. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/97 "2019-02-11T21:48:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You disagree with the Republican judge that was nominated at the recommendation of Orrin Hatch, and who Mike Lee fawned over as “a preeminently qualified lawyer with a very distinguished career both within and outside the legal profession. He’ll be an outstanding judge, and I look forward to his confirmation.” Nice try with the ad hominem, bud. > > Here is a different take on your “but Republicans control the county and a judge made it into a Democrat one” line of argument: [Gerrymandering in San Juan County, Utah and Discrimination Against The Navajo - MCI Maps | Election Data Analyst | Election Targeting | FL](http://mcimaps.com/gerrymandering-in-san-juan-county-utah-how-navajo-voters-have-been-discriminated-against/) > > Basically, it shows that the new boundaries created one strongly Republican district, one strongly Democratic district, and one that seems to be more or less a swing district. That sounds mostly fair to me, but I’m not tied to any outcome in this county so long as the borders drawn aren’t racist and are generally fair. > > But like **Chronos** , I can’t figure out why you seem to be pursuing the line of “it isn’t politics” (my words) when the only other explanation that seems apparent is race. > > Further, I found this rather shocking review of the context of the Native American population in this county: [How a Utah county silenced Native American voters — and how Navajos are fighting back - High Country News](https://www.hcn.org/issues/48.10/how-a-utah-county-silenced-native-american-voters-and-how-navajos-are-fighting-back) Some highlights, which are quite sickening: > So let’s just place the blame where it truly belongs: Obama. :rolleyes: I blame the ridiculous people who think the government should be in charge of where ambulances are stationed. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/98 "2019-02-11T21:49:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The Navajo do not vote at the same rate as the non-Navajo population. I could have guessed that from reading the quote in \*\*Ravenman’s \*\*post #88. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/99 "2019-02-11T21:49:35Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I’m curious what you think the alternative is: Is it bands of freemen on the land, bravely not paying taxes to anyone? The alternative to forcing these people to stay in the jurisdiction is to allow them to secede. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/100 "2019-02-11T21:51:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The alternative to forcing these people to stay in the jurisdiction is to allow them to secede. So, three houses. Me and another guy on the ends who don’t want to secede, and the guy in the middle, who does. What’s the outcome? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=6)