# Utah county wants to split **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 10, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292 "2019-02-10T19:16:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/101 "2019-02-11T21:56:22Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > So, three houses. Me and another guy on the ends who don’t want to secede, and the guy in the middle, who does. What’s the outcome? He should be allowed to secede but that would be a bit silly as the surrounding jurisdiction would probably not be friendly to him. I’d advise against that. Now you. The guy says he secedes. What do you do? Kick in his door or call the cops to do it? Pull a Waco? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/102 "2019-02-11T21:57:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The Navajo do not vote at the same rate as the non-Navajo population. That’s the main reason why we’ve got a county that’s ~51% American Indian population but only 40% Democrat votes. And one of my links has a discussion of how quite a few elderly Navajos have poor command of English and have no written language, leading to difficulty when voting. It also says that the requirement to vote by mail had unintended consequences, like making it much harder for these individuals to vote. I would not call this voter suppression, as it does not seem to be intentional, and there were efforts to reverse that unintended consequence. But now I’m sure Republicans in the county may have some new ideas on how to win elections… after all, they had no compunction about a county clerk forging a date on an application for a Native American to appear on the ballot, in an effort to keep that person out of the election. [https://durangoherald.com/articles/236123](https://durangoherald.com/articles/236123) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/103 "2019-02-11T22:02:53Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > He should be allowed to secede but that would be a bit silly as the surrounding jurisdiction would probably not be friendly to him. I’d advise against that. So in your world everyone could individually secede? All 300 million of us? Do you foresee any problems with that? > [@](#): > > Now you. The guy says he secedes. What do you do? Kick in his door or call the cops to do it? Pull a Waco? I live in a country with a functioning legal system, so I don’t do anything at all. The government will resolve the problem without my input. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/104 "2019-02-11T22:09:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > So in your world everyone could individually secede? All 300 million of us? Do you foresee any problems with that? > > I live in a country with a functioning legal system, so I don’t do anything at all. The government will resolve the problem without my input. Cool. They’ll pull the Waco. I foresee problems with all political arrangements. My big thing is scale. I like to keep conflict on a small scale. Centralization results in large scale conflict. In this case, the social conflict between these ethnic groups would decrease if they weren’t forced to jockey for domination over each other. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/105 "2019-02-11T22:15:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I blame the ridiculous people who think the government should be in charge of where ambulances are stationed. In my admittedly sheltered experience, it’s always been the city or county commission that decide where to build the new fire and/or ambulance station. Who do you think should decide these locations? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/106 "2019-02-11T22:18:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > … In this case, the social conflict between these ethnic groups would decrease if they weren’t forced to jockey for domination over each other. Exactly. Let the Navajo pick their own sheriff and DA and decide where they want their own ambulances to be stationed and what they want their tax rate to be. That would, overall, be a good thing, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/107 "2019-02-11T22:19:22Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Perhaps the whites do not agree with the political policies of the election winners? And therefore should of course be allowed to split off and form a new polity. I wholeheartedly agree that the whites should be permitted to secede because they’re unhappy with the results of the elections. I live in Atlanta, which is historically strongly Democratic – the last Republican mayor was elected in 1877 – and there are plenty of whites (and blacks and Hispanics as well) who vehemently disagree with the policies of the party that won the Presidential election in 2016. So I assume I can count on your support for my proposal for the city of Atlanta to secede from the rest of Georgia, which is strongly Republican (no Democrat currently holds any statewide post)? The rest of Georgia might be upset that we’re taking with us the $385.5 billion we contributed to Georgia’s $554 billion GDP, as well as the largest, and one of only two Level One trauma centers in the state, the 16 Fortune 500 companies headquartered here, and of course the world’s busiest airport, but hey, they voted for Trump and we voted for Clinton, so it’s obviously best we separate. I’m thinking “Atlanta: We Don’t Need No Stinkin’ Republicans!” for the T-shirts and bumper stickers. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/108 "2019-02-11T22:20:04Z")
Private healthcare providers. But it may be too much to ask that the people who have devoted their lives to saving people should have a say. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/109 "2019-02-11T22:21:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Cool. They’ll pull the Waco. Waco is where they were molesting children, right? Do you think the government should not have acted to prevent the molestation of children? > [@](#): > > I foresee problems with all political arrangements. My big thing is scale. I like to keep conflict on a small scale. Centralization results in large scale conflict. Benefits also scale, faster than conflicts. Which is why people traditionally form governments. > [@](#): > > In this case, the social conflict between these ethnic groups would decrease if they weren’t forced to jockey for domination over each other. Yeah, the white people wouldn’t care if the Natives had stayed in their place, quiet and suffering. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/110 "2019-02-11T22:22:42Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > He should be allowed to secede but that would be a bit silly as the surrounding jurisdiction would probably not be friendly to him. I’d advise against that. So an individual house should be allowed to unilaterally secede from just the county, or at the state and federal level too? I’m just trying to see how far down this rabbit hole goes. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/111 "2019-02-11T22:25:37Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > And therefore should of course be allowed to split off and form a new polity. I wholeheartedly agree that the whites should be permitted to secede because they’re unhappy with the results of the elections. > > I live in Atlanta, which is historically strongly Democratic – the last Republican mayor was elected in 1877 – and there are plenty of whites (and blacks and Hispanics as well) who vehemently disagree with the policies of the party that won the Presidential election in 2016. So I assume I can count on your support for my proposal for the city of Atlanta to secede from the rest of Georgia, which is strongly Republican (no Democrat currently holds any statewide post)? The rest of Georgia might be upset that we’re taking with us the $385.5 billion we contributed to Georgia’s $554 billion GDP, as well as the largest, and one of only two Level One trauma centers in the state, the 16 Fortune 500 companies headquartered here, and of course the world’s busiest airport, but hey, they voted for Trump and we voted for Clinton, so it’s obviously best we separate. > > I’m thinking “Atlanta: We Don’t Need No Stinkin’ Republicans!” for the T-shirts and bumper stickers. That would be great, thanks! The return of the city-state would be ideal. I’ll send a check. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/112 "2019-02-11T22:32:53Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Waco is where they were molesting children, right? Do you think the government should not have acted to prevent the molestation of children? I don’t want to go down that rabbit hole right now, sorry. > [@](#): > > Benefits also scale, faster than conflicts. Which is why people traditionally form governments. Governments have traditionally formed by conquest. Yes once you get the ball-rolling on conquering people, there are benefits to being able to conquer more people I guess. > [@](#): > > Yeah, the white people wouldn’t care if the Natives had stayed in their place, quiet and suffering. You’re probably right. Then again, the Navajo would also have my support if they wanted to secede. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/113 "2019-02-11T22:33:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Exactly. Let the Navajo pick their own sheriff and DA and decide where they want their own ambulances to be stationed and what they want their tax rate to be. That would, overall, be a good thing, wouldn’t it? It would be an interesting experiment in separate but equal municipal services, and I cannot foresee how that concept could not possibly be poorly received… ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/114 "2019-02-11T22:35:15Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > So an individual house should be allowed to unilaterally secede from just the county, or at the state and federal level too? I’m just trying to see how far down this rabbit hole goes. Sure but I wouldn’t advise it. Governments are not good neighbors. In this case, the white county would still presumably be held in favor by the rest of the state. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/115 "2019-02-11T22:36:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Exactly. Let the Navajo pick their own sheriff and DA and decide where they want their own ambulances to be stationed and what they want their tax rate to be. That would, overall, be a good thing, wouldn’t it? Of course. Seems obvious to me. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/116 "2019-02-11T22:39:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It would be an interesting experiment in separate but equal municipal services, and I cannot foresee how that concept could not possibly be poorly received… Right. It was better that Bull Connor had jurisdiction and a monopoly on fire hoses. It would have been a shame had the black community its own institutions. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/117 "2019-02-11T22:55:19Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Private healthcare providers. But it may be too much to ask that the people who have devoted their lives to saving people should have a say. WHAT private healthcare providers? As in much of rural America, emergency medical responders in San Juan County are paid by the county government, drive county-owned ambulances, and are dispatched from the county sheriff’s dispatch center. Why should the county not have a say in how county money is spent? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/118 "2019-02-11T23:06:11Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > WHAT private healthcare providers? As in much of rural America, emergency medical responders in San Juan County are paid by the county government, drive county-owned ambulances, and are dispatched from the county sheriff’s dispatch center. Why should the county not have a say in how county money is spent? Wow I can’t believe there is a problem with that arrangement. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/119 "2019-02-11T23:08:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Right. It was better that Bull Connor had jurisdiction and a monopoly on fire hoses. It would have been a shame had the black community its own institutions. I see we have one vote for segregation! ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/120 "2019-02-11T23:09:11Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > … You’re probably right. Then again, the Navajo would also have my support if they wanted to secede. This. I’d also oppose the white, Republican Mormons in Blanding if they were seeking to prevent the Navajo from seceding. The reason that’s not happening is that the Navajo don’t really have much the residents of Blanding have a desire to govern, but the residents of Blanding do have something the Navajo want to govern: a tax base. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=7)