# Utah county wants to split **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 10, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292 "2019-02-10T19:16:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/121 "2019-02-11T23:10:25Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I see we have one vote for segregation! You’re apparently voting for the Africa model: Let’s jam diverse ethnic groups together, force them to jockey for domination over each other, and surely nothing bad will come of that? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/122 "2019-02-11T23:12:46Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I see we have one vote for segregation! Yes that’s what segregation was. Black people controlling their own institutions. Seriously, is that what you think it was? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/123 "2019-02-11T23:17:48Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes that’s what segregation was. Black people controlling their own institutions. > > Seriously, is that what you think it was? Oh yeah, I think you just endorsed a white fire department and a black fire department. As if that would have helped. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/124 "2019-02-11T23:18:33Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > WHAT private healthcare providers? As in much of rural America, emergency medical responders in San Juan County are paid by the county government, drive county-owned ambulances, and are dispatched from the county sheriff’s dispatch center. Why should the county not have a say in how county money is spent? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Wow I can’t believe there is a problem with that arrangement. Dude, that’s the way it is in virtually every small town and rural area in this country. Seems to work pretty well in most places. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/125 "2019-02-11T23:26:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Exactly. Let the Navajo pick their own sheriff and DA and decide where they want their own ambulances to be stationed and what they want their tax rate to be. That would, overall, be a good thing, wouldn’t it? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Of course. Seems obvious to me. Presumably, past tax dollars paid by the Navajo have gone to build and maintain the present municipal offices, and purchase emergency vehicles, highway maintenance equipment, and other assets owned by the county. So those folks in the ‘new’ county would have no issues with the Navajo-controlled county taking ownership of half of the county assets, and would have no problem helping to fund a new county building and fire station? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/126 "2019-02-11T23:30:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You’re apparently voting for the Africa model: Let’s jam diverse ethnic groups together, force them to jockey for domination over each other, and surely nothing bad will come of that? In this Africa analogy you’re so fond of, who precisely are the colonizers in Utah? ---
**Author:** ![Reindeer\_Flotilla](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reindeer_flotilla/32/3024_2.png) [@Reindeer\_Flotilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reindeer_Flotilla)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/127 "2019-02-11T23:30:18Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Right. It was better that Bull Connor had jurisdiction and a monopoly on fire hoses. It would have been a shame had the black community its own institutions. Wow, thanks for reminding us how sickening local populist self-rule can be. It was great for citizens’ freedom and equal rights that the federal government had the power to stop Bull Connor and his supporters. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/128 "2019-02-11T23:36:44Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Presumably, past tax dollars paid by the Navajo have gone to build and maintain the present municipal offices, and purchase emergency vehicles, highway maintenance equipment, and other assets owned by the county. So those folks in the ‘new’ county would have no issues with the Navajo-controlled county taking ownership of half of the county assets, and would have no problem helping to fund a new county building and fire station? It’s a bit like a divorce. I don’t know what procedures are already in place to determine the division of assets and things like that, but yes, I’d hope for some reasonable divvying up of things, and given that the county seat is currently in Monticello, that might mean some financial support for the left-behind county (perhaps divided along the reservation border) to construct some new infrastructure. FWIW, I can’t find detailed information on revenue, but my impression is that the “past tax dollars paid by the Navajo” are relatively few and far between. The Navajo are almost certainly net takers, not payers, to put it in the better-known frame of reference of “donor states” model that you might be familiar with at the federal level. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/129 "2019-02-11T23:55:04Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > In this Africa analogy you’re so fond of, who precisely are the colonizers in Utah? The Africa analogy I’m so fond of doesn’t touch on who the colonizers are. It’s concerned with the effects of forcing disparate ethnic groups into power struggles with each other over shared government institutions, and the ensuing harm this causes. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/130 "2019-02-11T23:56:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The Navajo are almost certainly net takers, not payers, to put it in the better-known frame of reference of “donor states” model that you might be familiar with at the federal level. Well, I guess we have stumbled on the way that the Navajo are like Republicans… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/131 "2019-02-11T23:58:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The Africa analogy I’m so fond of doesn’t touch on who the colonizers are. It’s concerned with the effects of forcing disparate ethnic groups into power struggles with each other over shared government institutions, and the ensuing harm this causes. But the mess you are referring to is specifically because of decolonization. There can’t be nobody responsible for the current state of affairs. Are you actually familiar with the term decolonization and what has happened in Africa and elsewhere in the last six or seven decades, or is this just a superficial gloss that you’re applying? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/132 "2019-02-12T00:01:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I don’t want to go down that rabbit hole right now, sorry. Ok, so you make a breathtakingly stupid reference and then want us to just ignore that. Because the Government is such a horrible beast that it would be preferable to let crazy people rape children than to let the beast do anything about it? Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/133 "2019-02-12T00:06:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, I guess we have stumbled on the way that the Navajo are like Republicans… For someone who was earlier complaining about potshots, you don’t seem to be contributing much else. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/134 "2019-02-12T00:18:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > For someone who was earlier complaining about potshots, you don’t seem to be contributing much else. Well, I guess when you’re performing poorly in a debate, the last straw is to throw out junk like this. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/135 "2019-02-12T00:40:09Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Presumably, past tax dollars paid by the Navajo have gone to build and maintain the present municipal offices, and purchase emergency vehicles, highway maintenance equipment, and other assets owned by the county. So those folks in the ‘new’ county would have no issues with the Navajo-controlled county taking ownership of half of the county assets, and would have no problem helping to fund a new county building and fire station? Presumably? You seriously think the Navajo have put in half the money? This whole discussion started off with the mention of the how if the county split it would leave two counties with very lopsided tax bases. A lot of county budgets rely on property taxes. I have a sneaky suspicion that the sovereign tribal lands do not pay property taxes but anyone can feel free to correct me. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/136 "2019-02-12T00:56:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, I guess when you’re performing poorly in a debate, the last straw is to throw out junk like this. I’m not overly-concerned with how you think I’m performing. I just wanted to make note of the hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/137 "2019-02-12T01:03:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not overly-concerned with how you think I’m performing. I just wanted to make note of the hypocrisy. Making note of an ad hominem. Boy, that’ll get you far. So once again, I asked you a substantive question about decolonization, since you keep bringing it up. If you want to get this debate on track again, one good way is that you respond to it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/138 "2019-02-12T01:14:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > … Are you actually familiar with the term decolonization and what has happened in Africa and elsewhere in the last six or seven decades, or is this just a superficial gloss that you’re applying? Yes, I’m familiar with the term. Yes, I have some understanding of what’s happened in Africa in recent decades. I believe there are lessons from their experience that can be relevant outside of the continent. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/139 "2019-02-12T01:38:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, I’m familiar with the term. Yes, I have some understanding of what’s happened in Africa in recent decades. I believe there are lessons from their experience that can be relevant outside of the continent. And that lesson is: white people shouldn’t have to put up with non-white rule. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/140 "2019-02-12T02:16:34Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Taking your ball and leaving is a choice, but if you make that choice immediately after you begin losing the game, I’m going to view that as an inherently childish decision, and it’s going to be on you to explain why it isn’t. > > Are the districts gerrymandered towards Democrats? I have no idea, but if they are, the Democrats in that county are just winning that the game we’ve all been playing for decades. Is that really the response to losing an election, taking your ball and going home? It is if you think the game can be won. People on the Right believe it can be and have been acting that way for decades now. They do not understand that this is an Infinite Game not a Finite Game. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=8)