# Utah county wants to split **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 10, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292 "2019-02-10T19:16:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/141 "2019-02-12T02:20:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I believe there are lessons from their experience that can be relevant outside of the continent. And the lesson you’ve learned is that conflicts between ethnic groups are solved with partition? As opposed to strengthening civil society? Can you give a couple examples of where partition worked particularly well, because that’s just not coming to me. On the other hand, I can think of a ton of examples where political and economic reforms have worked quite well; and I would include even places like Northern Ireland in that list. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/142 "2019-02-12T04:15:45Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Presumably? You seriously think the Navajo have put in half the money? This whole discussion started off with the mention of the how if the county split it would leave two counties with very lopsided tax bases. > > A lot of county budgets rely on property taxes. I have a sneaky suspicion that the sovereign tribal lands do not pay property taxes but anyone can feel free to correct me. From the Salt Lake City Tribune article linked upthread: > [@](#): > > A University of Utah study commissioned by the county determined that dividing could economically cripple the Navajo portion in the south, the Deseret News reported in 1997. > > Lyman said since then, the tax base on the northern end of the county has been “dramatically diminished,” so the two sides are more comparable. (Lyman is the former county commissioner and now state legislator who is pushing the split.) While residents on the reservation do not pay property taxes on their homes, residential property taxes are not the most significant source of funding for the county anyway. Over half of the county’s property tax revenue comes from oil and gas properties and equipment, much of it on the reservation; a quarter of the county’s budget comes from federal grants and other intergovernmental transfers, with the reservation being a major reason for these. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/143 "2019-02-12T04:41:24Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Presumably? You seriously think the Navajo have put in half the money? This whole discussion started off with the mention of the how if the county split it would leave two counties with very lopsided tax bases. > > A lot of county budgets rely on property taxes. I have a sneaky suspicion that the sovereign tribal lands do not pay property taxes but anyone can feel free to correct me. You are correct in your suspicion that no property taxes are paid on reservation lands. But Slash2k pointed out where the tax money comes from. My point remains that if secession is successful, there are a lot of things that will need to be duplicated. And that will cost a lot of money. Which is certainly one of the reasons that the Navajo are opposed to it. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/144 "2019-02-12T11:08:58Z")
> [@Reindeer\_Flotilla](#): > > Wow, thanks for reminding us how sickening local populist self-rule can be. It was great for citizens’ freedom and equal rights that the federal government had the power to stop Bull Connor and his supporters. Would have been a moot problem if self-rule in place. > [@Railer13](#): > > Presumably, past tax dollars paid by the Navajo have gone to build and maintain the present municipal offices, and purchase emergency vehicles, highway maintenance equipment, and other assets owned by the county. So those folks in the ‘new’ county would have no issues with the Navajo-controlled county taking ownership of half of the county assets, and would have no problem helping to fund a new county building and fire station? You’ll have to ask them. > [@Railer13](#): > > Dude, that’s the way it is in virtually every small town and rural area in this country. Seems to work pretty well in most places. Nevertheless, the problem is obviously one of government. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Oh yeah, I think you just endorsed a white fire department and a black fire department. As if that would have helped. Do you know what the characteristics of segregation were? I’m not sure you should be discussing the topic if you are not clued in. Black history month is in full swing at your local elementary school. I suggest you sit in on a lecture. Bring a growed-up chair. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/145 "2019-02-12T12:04:27Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Do you know what the characteristics of segregation were? I’m not sure you should be discussing the topic if you are not clued in. Black history month is in full swing at your local elementary school. I suggest you sit in on a lecture. Bring a growed-up chair. Warning for insults, Will. Do not insult other posters. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/146 "2019-02-12T14:15:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The Africa analogy I’m so fond of doesn’t touch on who the colonizers are. It’s concerned with the effects of forcing disparate ethnic groups into power struggles with each other over shared government institutions, and the ensuing harm this causes. It kinda sounds to me like you’re saying the Navajo aren’t real Americans,so the cultural conflict arises from lumping them together with “real” Americans. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/147 "2019-02-12T14:18:48Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > It kinda sounds to me like you’re saying the Navajo aren’t real Americans,so the cultural conflict arises from lumping them together with “real” Americans. That’s not at all what I’m saying. You’ll notice I haven’t used the word “real” in that fashion even once in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/148 "2019-02-12T14:42:33Z")
For the record, I don’t think his views are about real vs. fake Americans. I do find it really bizarre to refer to two groups of Americans as people who just cannot be asked or expected to find political accommodation and so separating them so they have less to do with each other is his recommended solution. I very strongly disagree with that kind of thinking, especially since there doesn’t seem to have been very much effort to solve whatever underlying problems there are. Plus I can’t quite figure out what he thinks are the underlying problems: he claims the county is strongly Republican, and then seems to argue that any election that doesn’t come up with Republican winners is tainted or fixed. I think all of this is incorrect, as the analysis I linked to earlier seems to indicate a polarized community. It also seems to me that the fundamental issue is an economic one, where one side of the community doesn’t think the other side should get a high school or ambulance if it will cost them anything. I think these issues are generally quite fixable if people work together, and would probably have long-term benefits to both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/149 "2019-02-12T15:01:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s not at all what I’m saying. You’ll notice I haven’t used the word “real” in that fashion even once in this thread. That’s why I didn’t say “Said” I said “Sounds like”. Every single community in America is a mix of higher income and lower income people. But you focus on this one community and suggest that the (white, higher income) group should be allowed to secede from a (Native American, lower-income) community, the impetus for which is the fact that one group (Native American, lower-income) managed to get proportional political representation for the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/150 "2019-02-12T15:05:31Z")
And to the point that the natives are “takers”- the entire region used to be native land. The whites took most of it, then turn around and accuse the natives of paying insufficient property tax, blissfully unaware, apparently, of where the property came from. Greed makes people daft. Easier to suggest that, because they “all” vote for Democrats, therefore they are All “liberals”, and you know what that means. Far easier than grappling with the real issues, as usual. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/151 "2019-02-12T15:19:17Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > That’s why I didn’t say “Said” I said “Sounds like”. Every single community in America is a mix of higher income and lower income people. But you focus on this one community and suggest that the (white, higher income) group should be allowed to secede from a (Native American, lower-income) community, the impetus for which is the fact that one group (Native American, lower-income) managed to get proportional political representation for the first time. **HurricaneDikta** , I fully admit that I could just be misreading you. Do you happen to have a link of you elsewhere supporting a community seceding from a larger (same-race!) community? If so I’ll admit that I got your motivations wrong. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/152 "2019-02-12T16:27:23Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > **HurricaneDikta** , I fully admit that I could just be misreading you. Do you happen to have a link of you elsewhere supporting a community seceding from a larger (same-race!) community? If so I’ll admit that I got your motivations wrong. That’s an interesting challenge. I don’t know if I’ve ever posted on such a specific topic. Would you count these? > [@Is secession still worth opposing with armed force today?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/56): > > If any red state(s) got serious about secession, I’d move there and advocate for it. I doubt the [US.gov](http://US.gov) would go to war to stop it if it were supported by a majority of the population, but if they did, I’d fight back. > [@Is secession still worth opposing with armed force today?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/62): > > Is the “we” here California or the rest of the states? Frankly, if California wanted to leave, I’d shrug and say, “ok, go ahead”, just like I expect most Californians would say if Texas decided to secede. > [@We are in a very unhealthy place as a country](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-are-in-a-very-unhealthy-place-as-a-country/771325/20): > > I, for one, am rather sympathetic to the Brits’ new-found respect for the right to self-determination. If California wants to leave, I say, “don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out”. Also, you might find this post interesting given the discussion around the tax base: > [@Cities w/o suburbs: Every metro area in America should have consolidated metro government](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/25): > > > [@Cities w/o suburbs: Every metro area in America should have consolidated metro government](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/5): > > > > Let the consolidated-metro State of Chicagoland deal with all the urban and suburban and exurban problems of that metro area; and let the government of the remainder of Illinois deal with its small-city and small-town and rural problems, no longer using Chicago’s tax base, and no longer spending money or worry on Chicago’s problems either. > > There are some people in Colorado that like that idea: [Northern Colorado Secession: Most In Favor Of 51st State At First Public Meeting](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/26/most-in-favor-of-51st-sta_n_3658977.html) … ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/153 "2019-02-12T16:30:54Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > And to the point that the natives are “takers”- the entire region used to be native land. The whites took most of it, then turn around and accuse the natives of paying insufficient property tax, blissfully unaware, apparently, of where the property came from. > > Greed makes people daft. Easier to suggest that, because they “all” vote for Democrats, therefore they are All “liberals”, and you know what that means. Far easier than grappling with the real issues, as usual. You might be interested to know that [Bluff, Utah was founded in 1880 (by white Mormons)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluff,_Utah) and [the southern portion of San Juan County wasn’t added to the Navajo reservation until four years later](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Nn_border_hist_map.svg). ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/154 "2019-02-12T16:34:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Nevertheless, the problem is obviously one of government. I’m not sure what you are trying to say here, so could you elucidate? The government has a hand in EMS/ambulance service across most of rural America because it’s not an economically viable proposition otherwise. Even my own county, which hosts the state capitol, [subsidizes a private provider](https://www.cjonline.com/news/2016-06-30/contract-cuts-shawnee-county-ambulance-subsidy-more-280000-year) to the tune of $300K/year, and we are large enough to have multiple full-time ambulance crews rather than relying on volunteers and part-timers as so many smaller communities do (and EMS services here are mostly the responsibility of the fire departments, which are primarily taxpayer-funded). ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/155 "2019-02-12T16:36:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You might be interested to know that [Bluff, Utah was founded in 1880 (by white Mormons)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluff,_Utah) and [the southern portion of San Juan County wasn’t added to the Navajo reservation until four years later](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Nn_border_hist_map.svg). That settles that. White mormons were there first. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/156 "2019-02-12T16:39:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You might be interested to know that [Bluff, Utah was founded in 1880 (by white Mormons)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluff,_Utah) and [the southern portion of San Juan County wasn’t added to the Navajo reservation until four years later](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Nn_border_hist_map.svg). And this is relevant to the argument how? The Navajo were already present in what became the southern part of the state of Utah some centuries before Joseph Smith started having visions of the golden plates. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/157 "2019-02-12T16:52:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s an interesting challenge. I don’t know if I’ve ever posted on such a specific topic. Would you count these? Yeah, I would. I withdraw my criticism–you have a principled position (that I happen to disagree with). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/158 "2019-02-12T16:55:58Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Yeah, I would. I withdraw my criticism–you have a principled position (that I happen to disagree with). Thanks 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/159 "2019-02-12T17:43:12Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > While residents on the reservation do not pay property taxes on their homes, residential property taxes are not the most significant source of funding for the county anyway. Over half of the county’s property tax revenue comes from oil and gas properties and equipment, much of it on the reservation; a quarter of the county’s budget comes from federal grants and other intergovernmental transfers, with the reservation being a major reason for these. > [@Railer13](#): > > You are correct in your suspicion that no property taxes are paid on reservation lands. But Slash2k pointed out where the tax money comes from. > > My point remains that if secession is successful, there are a lot of things that will need to be duplicated. And that will cost a lot of money. Which is certainly one of the reasons that the Navajo are opposed to it. That doesn’t exactly jibe with the study done in '97 quoted on the first page: > [@](#): > > If San Juan was split along the reservation’s border, the new south county would have $2.1 million - $434 per person - in operating capital in the year 2000, the study projected. The northern county would have almost four times that amount - $8.1 million. > > Without a split, San Juan County would have $801 per person. But regardless, istm that a split actually makes sense in some logistical and jurisdictional ways. First of all, some duplication of services is already required. The ambulance wait times seems ample proof of that. A quarter of the county is tribal lands that the county sheriffs and courts have no jurisdiction over with another quarter being “private Indian trust fund” held. People are being a little too blase comparing this to some other ethnic divides. In my mind to say “that tribe should have its own county” is very very different from saying “the African Americans should have their own county”. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/160 "2019-02-12T18:10:45Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > I’m not sure what you are trying to say here, so could you elucidate? > > The government has a hand in EMS/ambulance service across most of rural America because it’s not an economically viable proposition otherwise. Even my own county, which hosts the state capitol, [subsidizes a private provider](https://www.cjonline.com/news/2016-06-30/contract-cuts-shawnee-county-ambulance-subsidy-more-280000-year) to the tune of $300K/year, and we are large enough to have multiple full-time ambulance crews rather than relying on volunteers and part-timers as so many smaller communities do (and EMS services here are mostly the responsibility of the fire departments, which are primarily taxpayer-funded). Im saying that the government ambulatory service is inadequate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=9)