# Utah county wants to split **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 10, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292 "2019-02-10T19:16:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/161 "2019-02-12T18:16:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Im saying that the government ambulatory service is inadequate. What’s the alternative? ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/162 "2019-02-12T18:41:55Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > People are being a little too blase comparing this to some other ethnic divides. In my mind to say “that tribe should have its own county” is very very different from saying “the African Americans should have their own county”. I would agree with this statement. However, the reality is that the white population is saying “the whites should have their own county.” And the Navajos are opposed to a secession. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/163 "2019-02-12T19:01:42Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > I would agree with this statement. > > However, the reality is that the white population is saying “the whites should have their own county.” And the Navajos are opposed to a secession. Are they though? All the articles I have seen so far have one of the Native councilmen saying it wouldn’t be good. It could very well be that the majority of Navajo would be fine with it. Have I missed something where the tribal leadership has spoken on the issue? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/164 "2019-02-12T19:03:55Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I foresee problems with all political arrangements. My big thing is scale. I like to keep conflict on a small scale. Centralization results in large scale conflict. Maybe if things were starting from scratch. But the reality is that there are already-established foci of power (at many scales) that aren’t gonna go away. To ignore their existence is just a fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/165 "2019-02-12T19:39:12Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > The Navajo were already present in what became the southern part of the state of Utah some centuries before Joseph Smith started having visions of the golden plates. Right. First they were recast as something they were not, namely the lost tribe of Israel, itinerant Jews who came to the New World, where they flat-out rejected Jesus when they had the chance to do otherwise. This kind of false narrative is a great way to get people seething with unspoken accusations against members of some out-group. Now, they are recast as something they are not, namely “liberals” (and you know what That means). This kind of false narrative is a great way to get people seething with unspoken accusations against members of some out-group. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/166 "2019-02-12T20:56:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Perhaps a brief discussion on secession is in order. If, say, Quebec wanted to secede from Canada, or Scotland from the UK, who thinks it appropriate for the rest of Canada, or the rest of the UK to have the power to veto that decision? What about when a nation wants to leave the EU? Should the rest of the EU get to vote on that too? Just to be clear: there would be very few people in the UK who think that states should be allowed to secede from the union without any power of veto from the federation. The Irish clearly thought that, but they aren’t part of the UK anymore. The issue with the EU was that the UK did not want to become part of that country: had been promised all along that economic union did not mean political union, and are in the process of breaking the economic union to prevent political union. Don’t assume that the rest of the world sees politics the way you do. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/167 "2019-02-12T20:59:00Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > … Don’t assume that the rest of the world see politics the way you do. I’m not assuming in the post you quoted. I was asking people to share their thoughts on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/168 "2019-02-12T21:12:39Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not assuming in the post you quoted. I was asking people to share their thoughts on the subject. A break up of political entities should be mutual. If both sides no longer wish to be associated with each other, then they can work out an equitable split. If they cannot come to a compromise on division of assets, then they stay together. It should not be unilateral. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/169 "2019-02-12T21:35:51Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Just to be clear: there would be very few people in the UK who think that states should be allowed to secede from the union without any power of veto from the federation. The Irish clearly thought that, but they aren’t part of the UK anymore. > > The issue with the EU was that the UK did not want to become part of that country: **had been promised all along that economic union did not mean political union** , and are in the process of breaking the economic union to prevent political union. > > Don’t assume that the rest of the world sees politics the way you do. The bolded bit ain’t true, though. Sorry for slight detail. Political cooperation and plans for a European Union were well known before the UK even joined the EC. Carry on. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/170 "2019-02-12T21:45:36Z")
A county government isn’t a sovereign entity. A county split is nothing like withdrawing from a political union. It’s not a group of people refusing to treat another group of fellow citizens as deserving of the benefits of the advantages of living in the same society and a refusal to share political power and societal resources with others based on their race or class status. It’s just another form of white flight. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/171 "2019-02-12T21:51:58Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Im saying that the government ambulatory service is inadequate. The government ambulance service is as adequate as the previous county commissioners were willing to fund (which is in fact apparently a significant reason why the Navajo majority thinks they haven’t been treated particularly fairly by the previous county commissions). However, your statement here doesn’t seem to accord with your previous statement: > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I blame the ridiculous people who think the government should be in charge of where ambulances are stationed. Who, _ **exactly** _, are you calling ridiculous? I don’t see that the Navajo residents of southern San Juan County are ridiculous for thinking that more of the county’s budget should be spent on providing ambulance service in their neighborhoods, as opposed to locating the service primarily for the benefit of the (mostly white) residents of northern San Juan County. Are you arguing that they are ridiculous for thinking that, or what? Saying “well, the government should not be involved in ambulances at all” ignores the reality of life in San Juan County, or for that matter most of rural America, where private health care providers don’t operate ambulances because there isn’t a profit to be made. Whoever is making decisions about ambulance location in San Juan County, public money is ultimately paying for it, so who should the deciders be? (As it happens, after years of inaction by the white-dominated county, the Utah Navajo formed [their own separate ambulance service](http://newsletter.bmhutah.org/2017/01/19/unhs-ems-celebrates-third-year-serving-residents-of-utah-strip/), funded mostly with tribal and federal monies, so ambulance service probably isn’t as big a deal as it used to be in county politics.) ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/172 "2019-02-12T22:07:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Are they though? All the articles I have seen so far have one of the Native councilmen saying it wouldn’t be good. It could very well be that the majority of Navajo would be fine with it. Have I missed something where the tribal leadership has spoken on the issue? No, you haven’t missed anything. I assumed (yes, I know what that means) that the councilman who was quoted was speaking on behalf of the tribe, when clearly he was not. For that matter, we don’t know if the majority of whites are in favor of secession, either. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/173 "2019-02-14T23:32:09Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And that lesson is: white people shouldn’t have to put up with non-white rule. Africa as a whole, and places like Zimbabwe in particular, just show that what goes round goes round. As for decolonization, the former colonies cut across ethnic and tribal borders, but none of the now independent countries have ever adjusted their borders. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/174 "2019-02-14T23:49:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Look, I don’t know jack about this issue other than what I read in the OP and the link. But at first glance, it looks like apartheid has ended in one country in Utah… and the first reply is a criticism of liberals? WTF? By someone who wanted to derail the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2019, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/175 "2019-02-15T09:06:28Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > That would be great, thanks! The return of the city-state would be ideal. I think I speak for at least one of us when I say that it might be intriguing to hear your best example of a city-state. Sparta is famous as a progressive city-state — indeed Aristotle called it a gynecocracy! — but it was class-conscious. Is classism a libertarian ideal? :— > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Spartan citizens were debarred by law from trade or manufacture, which consequently rested in the hands of the Perioikoi. Of course the Perioikoi had it better than the Helots: > [@Myron of Priene](#): > > They assign to the Helots every shameful task leading to disgrace. For they ordained that each one of them must wear a dogskin cap (κυνῆ / kunễ) and wrap himself in skins (διφθέρα / diphthéra) and receive a stipulated number of beatings every year regardless of any wrongdoing, so that they would never forget they were slaves. Moreover, if any exceeded the vigour proper to a slave’s condition, they made death the penalty; and they allotted a punishment to those controlling them if they failed to rebuke those who were growing fat. > [@Thucydides](#): > > The helots were invited by a proclamation to pick out those of their number who claimed to have most distinguished themselves against the enemy, in order that they might receive their freedom; the object being to test them, as it was thought that the first to claim their freedom would be the most high spirited and the most apt to rebel. As many as two thousand were selected accordingly, who crowned themselves and went round the temples, rejoicing in their new freedom. The Spartans, however, soon afterwards did away with them, and no one ever knew how each of them perished. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/176 "2019-02-18T17:06:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Care to lay out your position on secession in general? My view is that Quebec, Scotland, and the UK ought to be free to “take their ball and leave” if they so choose (and so should portions of San Juan County). What do you think about that though? Do you have a position that can be reasonably applied to all of those situations? Is there some nuance in San Juan County that merits a different set of principles in your opinion? Or do you always oppose secession? Or just when it’s Republicans considering it? You missed your calling by 150 years with the Confederacy. Seriously, many states require agreement by all parties in the partitioning of counties. Sometimes they do agree, other times not. There is no unilateral leaving. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/177 "2019-02-18T17:17:15Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So political disputes should be settled by the results of brute force conflicts 150 years ago. The losers must accept the order of things. Especially when the winners were magnanimous in not reducing their status back to territories that would have needed to earn back the benefits of full statehood. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/178 "2019-02-18T17:59:29Z")
So, the political disputes of 150 years from now should be settled by the results of brute force conflicts _today_. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/179 "2019-02-19T14:22:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not assuming in the post you quoted. I was asking people to share their thoughts on the subject. I think secession should have a high bar for both parties. At least 100% of the **combined** vote between both the child territory and the remaining parent territory must agree to the breakup. (i.e, if 90% of the child territory votes to leave, then at least 10% of the parent territory must also approve the split). ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292/180 "2019-02-19T15:11:04Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > The losers must accept the order of things. Especially when the winners were magnanimous in not reducing their status back to territories that would have needed to earn back the benefits of full statehood. This county was a loser in the Civil War? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-county-wants-to-split/829292.md?page=10)