Utah going to a 4 day workweek.

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=Cornelius Tuggerson]
I’d like to point out that PTO stands for payed time off. Personal is not mentioned anywhere in the definition.

[/QUOTE]

When I worked at AT&T, vacation days and personal days were kept distinct, though both were paid. It didn’t matter for those of us doing research, but factory guys had to schedule vacation days well in advance, while personal days were for last minute things like doctors appointments. You could carry over a certain amount of vacation, but not personal days. When you left, you got paid for unused vacation days, but not unused personal days.

The way your paid time off is administered makes it sound a lot like a combination of vacation and personal days.

22

[QUOTE=lieu]
While congestion may increase in duration, it theoretically should decrease in intensity.
[/QUOTE]

Utah. U-T-A-H. Yoo-TAH.

23

[QUOTE=HoboStew]
link

So what do you guys think? Personally I would absolutely love to work four 10 hour days instead of five 8 hour days, but I can see employers grumbling about lost productivity because I think ultimately workers will be more productive under the current 5 day setup. I am also guessing the energy savings they are supposedly getting are minimal - its just transferring energy consumption from an office to many homes. All in all I am excited, and I hope it succeeds and spreads (at least to my state!).

Let me be more clear on what the debate is:

  1. Will this result in a significant energy savings?
  2. What will be the net gain/loss in worker productivity?
  3. Should other states adopt this plan?
    [/QUOTE]

I worked seven years for this company, the last four years on a 10-hour, 4 day a week schedule. Here are a few things you might want to know.

There was little time during the week for anything but work, eat, and sleep. No time after work to attend children’s activities or to shop or to conduct any necessary business. The week was very tiring, so I spent most of Friday catching up on my sleep or doing things that were impossible to do during the week. Then there was the overtime shifts which came on Friday during the busy season were I worked. It was an excellent opportunity for the business to call for overtime and did so frequently. I did not like the schedule and most working it didn’t either. Our police department tried out the schedule and soon went back to the five day week.

I am sure some will like it, but for me it didn’t produce any extra time off to do the things I wanted to do. But I am retired now so don’t have to worry about it any more. Just my thoughts for your consideration.

24

The idea is not that every body gets Friday off. Some will work Tues thru Friday. The office wont be closed on Fri.

25

No thanks, I like being able to see my children in the evening and wouldn’t be able to handle four days at a time of not seeing them at all.

26

I worked 4/40 earlier this year. The company I work for is pretty flexible. I’d get up, go to work, come home, go to bed, sleep seven hours, and repeat. I loved having Fridays off. And I was telecommuting Mondays. But with a 200+ mile r/t commute, I just wasn’t getting enough sleep. Now I’m back on 5/40 and I’m telecommuting Mondays and Fridays. I miss the lazy Fridays and being able to run errands on that day. I also miss being able to do more work, as eight hours often doesn’t seem like enough time. But I’m getting more sleep and I feel that’s healthy.

27

[QUOTE=HoboStew]
link

So what do you guys think? Personally I would absolutely love to work four 10 hour days instead of five 8 hour days, but I can see employers grumbling about lost productivity because I think ultimately workers will be more productive under the current 5 day setup. I am also guessing the energy savings they are supposedly getting are minimal - its just transferring energy consumption from an office to many homes. All in all I am excited, and I hope it succeeds and spreads (at least to my state!).

Let me be more clear on what the debate is:

  1. Will this result in a significant energy savings?
    [/quote]

Given the price of gas these days a lot of people are cutting down discretionary use of their vehicle. There’s nothing discretionary about getting to work an extra 50 days a year if you have to work 5 8s.

Enormous in my opinion.

Daily unproductive time
2 coffee breaks 30 minutes
8 am gear up 10 minutes
10 am gear down 5 minutes
10;15 gear up 10 minutes
12 noon gear down 5 minutes
12:30 gear up 10 minutes
2:30 gear down 5 minutes
2:45 gear up 10 minutes
4:30 gear down/clean up/ 15 minutes

Total daily non productive time 100 minutes per day.

At 5 days per week, productivity ratio is 380/480 or 79 %
At 4 days per week, productivity ratio is 500/600 or 83 %

Productivity increase is 5 %

Absolutely ! The 8 hour day is a modern invention because we could afford it, but people used to work 10 hours per day under much tougher condition for 6 days per week and did okay. This plan will do more to cut carbon emissions than any other plan thats been seriously proposed.

28

Strikes me as a feasible attempt at energy conservation. Bosses of jobs where you have to be there for customers may feel differently than programming/craftsman jobs you can do at your own pace. The devil is in the details regarding PTO etc.

But the 20% reduction in daily commutes can’t hurt.

That it happened in predominantly Republican Utah IMO portends that energy conservation isn’t just for tree-huggers anymore (although the fact that it’s also vastly rural, large-distance Utah makes perfect sense).

Whatever, mark this date.

29

Ironically, Utahns will still need to take PTO for trips to the DMV–since the DMV will be closed on Fridays, as will every other state government office, except the university, the police officers, the liquor store, and the correctional facilities, and the courts. So if you have to run to the DMV or the Social Security office, or any other bureaucratic nightmare, you either get to fit in after work (since the offices will be open until 6) or take PTO (just not PTO on Fridays!). And this is not mandatory for every business, of course. It’s just an experiment for state employees.

I was really excited when I first heard about this, until I realized my husband (a state employee but at the U) would still be working the same work week.

ETA: Also, this will have very little affect on the “vastly rural” part of Utah. The Wasatch Front, while not the largest population center, will be affected the most. I doubt the rural areas will feel this at all–except for the people who live out in the boonies, work for the state, and travel 40+ miles to the Wasatch Front.

And Utah has very good reason to conserve energy that has nothing to do with Democratic or Republican ideals. There’s an inversion layer in the Salt Lake Valley and it gets really bad in the summer and winter months when there are very little storms/wind to clear the air. It gets to the point that there are daily air advisories. If this experiment works and spreads to other areas/industries, then the air quality might just improve.

30

Missed the edit window. I’m sure people here want to conserve energy in general, I just get the feeling that the main concern is cutting down on the amount of cars on the road, thus reducing pollution and improving the quality of life in the area.

31

[QUOTE=Santo Rugger]
I work 9/80 (9 hour days, 80 hours a week), and get every other Friday off. It works out quite nicely, IMHO.
[/QUOTE]

I take it that bit I bolded was meant to be 80 hours per 2-week cycle?

I don’t see why this is so strange. Threads about European vs American productivity always seem to bring up the fact that Americans work much longer hours. I was under the impression that a 10-hour workday was nothing unusual, almost the norm, for people over there. Is that not in fact the case?

32

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
I was under the impression that a 10-hour workday was nothing unusual, almost the norm, for people over there. Is that not in fact the case?
[/QUOTE]

In most employment situations, eight hours is the official workday, especially for hourly workers, because beyond 40 hours a week, the employer must pay more.

Unofficially, many employers squeeze “under the table” work hours from employees.

So going to an official 10-hour day might result in bringing “official” work hours more in line with actual hours worked.

33

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I worked seven years for this company, the last four years on a 10-hour, 4 day a week schedule. Here are a few things you might want to know.

There was little time during the week for anything but work, eat, and sleep. No time after work to attend children’s activities or to shop or to conduct any necessary business. The week was very tiring, so I spent most of Friday catching up on my sleep or doing things that were impossible to do during the week. Then there was the overtime shifts which came on Friday during the busy season were I worked. It was an excellent opportunity for the business to call for overtime and did so frequently. I did not like the schedule and most working it didn’t either. Our police department tried out the schedule and soon went back to the five day week.

I am sure some will like it, but for me it didn’t produce any extra time off to do the things I wanted to do. But I am retired now so don’t have to worry about it any more. Just my thoughts for your consideration.
[/QUOTE]

You are serious? “Little time during the week for anything but work, eat,and sleep?”

Holy crap - I can’t remember the last time I didn’t do 4 10 hour days in the week, as well as a shorter Friday and some weekend work. And stuff gets done. There are pretty much always groceries in the house and my laundry manages to make it into the machine and then the dryer. The lawn gets mowed (no way in hell I am paying $50 a week for that). And I still manage to have some time to go out for a few beers.

If my son lived with me it would be harder, I concede that. But still, I find this amazing.

34

I saw a General Motors report on productivity a few years ago. It showed that after 8 hours productivity dropped off considerably. From 10 to 12 hours ,work was practically a waste.
This was in engineering. Eight hours is maxing efficiency.

35

What if you were allowed to choose your off day?

How awesome does this sound for a work week

work Monday
work Tuesday
off Wednesday
work Thursday
work Friday
off Saturday
off Sunday

Sounds pretty awesome to me.

36

I’m not sure that it would be advisable. As everyone’s pointed out in this thread, either the nature of one’s personal life or one’s job can make an 8/80 schedule either really awesome or really difficult. I believe gonzomax; there’s plenty of jobs where stretching a shift to 10 hours is just going to be murder on the employees, whereas some could easily go 12 without breaking a sweat.

I think instead of a statewide decree that everyone is henceforth on a 4 day work week, there should be incentives offered to companies that can move a certain percentage of their workforce to an alternative schedule or even telecommuting. I think it’s really going to rely on employers deciding for themselves and their employees that it’s in their best interests to accomodate an alternative schedule than the government changing things by fiat.

37

[QUOTE=Bosstone]

I think instead of a statewide decree that everyone is henceforth on a 4 day work week, there should be incentives offered to companies that can move a certain percentage of their workforce to an alternative schedule or even telecommuting. I think it’s really going to rely on employers deciding for themselves and their employees that it’s in their best interests to accomodate an alternative schedule than the government changing things by fiat.
[/QUOTE]

It’s not a statewide decree that everyone is henceforth on a 4-day week. It’s an experiment for a certain subset of state employees (barring courts, correctional facilities, and schools). This will affect several thousand employees, but none of them are in the private sector. I’m sure if the experiment turns out to be popular and a rousing success, other companies will begin to consider their options.

38

[QUOTE=pepperlandgirl]
It’s not a statewide decree that everyone is henceforth on a 4-day week.
[/QUOTE]
My mistake. I spoke off the cuff without reading too deeply into the matter.

39

[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
What if you were allowed to choose your off day?

How awesome does this sound for a work week

work Monday
work Tuesday
off Wednesday
work Thursday
work Friday
off Saturday
off Sunday

Sounds pretty awesome to me.
[/QUOTE]

FTR, this is schedule I work and I love it. Wednesdays tend to be the worst traffic since the most people work those days. I very seldom have trouble making appointments on Wednesdays, so I never have to take time off either. It’s also nice because I still get my 2-day weekend, but I get a nice little break in the middle of the week which is very nice.

Over all, I think the 4-day work week will save on energy, as others pointed out, because that’s 20% less time on the road. Letting more white collar workers telecommute would help as well. Further, if they can find ways to stagger the days off equally and not just one Fridays (at least do half Fridays and half Mondays) you’d reduce the volume of traffic, which means, even on days where you are commuting, you still use less fuel.

And, besides the obvious difference in fuel cost, it DOES net you more time. Even if it doesn’t help on the other days and you commute 30 minutes each way, you save 1 hour a week that could be otherwise used for chores and/or errands. If it’s spread out across all five days, you may even see your commute drop by five minutes, based on less traffic volume, which essentially takes 5 hours of commuting and turning it into 3:20 hours.

I have read studies that show that productivity cuts off sharply at 8 hours, but I’m not sure how fair those studies are. Were these people on a 10+ hour workday already and use to it? Were they working 4x10 or more like 5x10? Is there any potential for higher productivity in the earlier hours and/or earlier days in the week from being more rested from having an extra day off?

Besides, even if there is an overall reduction in productivity, doesn’t the reduced energy cost help balance that out?

The only legitimate concern I see is the childcare one I’ve seen. However, a few modifications will actually make this plan vastly superior. For instance, if staggered days are allowed, only 3 days will be needed for child care instead of 5 in a two-parent household. Also, as I know many parents already do, by staggering the hours they work, where one leaves earlier and gets home earlier, and the other leave later and gets home later, I think this would actually generally reduce the childcare costs for any two-parent households and remain pretty much the same for single-parents. Surely childcare providers in Utah will adjust their schedules to accomodate this plan.

I think this is a good idea, and it’s nice to see someone is trying it out. Hopefully the idea will spread

40

[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
What if you were allowed to choose your off day?

How awesome does this sound for a work week

work Monday
work Tuesday
off Wednesday
work Thursday
work Friday
off Saturday
off Sunday

Sounds pretty awesome to me.
[/QUOTE]
This is how I would do it. I would LOVE to break up the work week like this. I am not too concerned with the whole “you can’t do ANYTHING on days that you work other than eat and sleep” because thats almost how it is anyways.