# Utah Judge Takes Child From Lesbian Foster Parents **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 12, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381 "2015-11-12T16:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/41 "2015-11-13T00:05:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But the question is if it’s a right altogether, similar to marriage. I think of foster parenting as some sort of good deed, similar to donating blood. > > But I’m not a lawyer. RNATB is a lawyer and he said upthread that it’s an equal protection issue, and I can’t dispute that. I tend to agree with RNATB, but courts almost universally never, ever, ever consider the “rights” of any adoptive parents, gay or straight. The focus is on the “best interests of the child.” Courts repeat that over and over again: Yes, it was unfair to you, parents, what happened, but we are doing what is best for the child. If studies did actually show that straight parents were better, would that be enough to overcome an equal protection argument? Probably not. Such an argument was struck down with regards to interracial couples. Palmore v. Sidoti [Google Scholar](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5853206159663402042&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/42 "2015-11-13T00:07:07Z")
OK! OK! A fucking Republican did the decent thing! I admit it, its right there. Happy now?! _Sheeesh…_ ---
**Author:** ![little\_bit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@little\_bit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/little_bit)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/43 "2015-11-13T00:19:29Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not sure I get this. The SC said that people have a right to marry same-sex people. Do people have any sort of right to be foster parents? The couple passed all testing to become foster parents & were approved by the department of social services, so yes they have that right. The judge only got involved when the attempted to permanently adopt the child. And because this is the pit… Twat-waffle. Douche-nozzle. Dipshit. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/44 "2015-11-13T00:21:23Z")
Just to give some perspective on the judge, here’s some snippets from the article I saw on [FB](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34800722). In 1997, he was reprimanded for slapping a 16-year-old in the face at a courthouse And in 2012, he drew attention for ordering a 13-year-old girl’s hair cut in exchange for a lighter sentence he was criticised for sending a teenage boy on probation to jail after he received a poor school report ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/45 "2015-11-13T00:52:04Z")
A judge should be a neutral umpire. The judge may not personally agree with the rules he must use, but he must still follow them. This judge failed in that regard. I can only assume that his failure will be swiftly corrected by higher review. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/46 "2015-11-13T00:57:51Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Okay. Let’s say, hypothetically, evidence comes in that gay couples are better at it. > > What follows? Read Revelation for that answer. Hint cats and dogs living together mass hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/47 "2015-11-13T01:00:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Read Revelation for that answer. :rolleyes: I sprained something rolling my eyes so hard. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/48 "2015-11-13T01:23:20Z")
One doesn’t so much read Revelations as gape at it in shock, horror and dismay. Go ahead, read any three chapters and tell me they didn’t have bad acid in the first century C.E. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/49 "2015-11-13T02:10:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > One doesn’t so much read Revelations as gape at it in shock, horror and dismay. Go ahead, read any three chapters and tell me they didn’t have bad acid in the first century C.E. Or perhaps ergot in the rye bread. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/50 "2015-11-13T02:12:51Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Just to give some perspective on the judge, here’s some snippets from the article I saw on [FB](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34800722). > > In 1997, he was reprimanded for slapping a 16-year-old in the face at a courthouse > > And in 2012, he drew attention for ordering a 13-year-old girl’s hair cut in exchange for a lighter sentence > > he was criticised for sending a teenage boy on probation to jail after he received a poor school report Sounds like the next Governor of Utah. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/51 "2015-11-13T03:04:19Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Read Revelation for that answer. Hint cats and dogs living together mass hysteria. > [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > :rolleyes: > I sprained something rolling my eyes so hard. On the other hand, he followed it with something like a joke. It’s just possible the first sentence was joking too. Kanic is a very, very queer bird. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/52 "2015-11-13T04:02:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Or perhaps ergot in the rye bread. [Ergot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergot), BTW, is the essential organic feedstock for making LSD. _Cogito ergot the colors, maaaannn!_ ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/53 "2015-11-13T04:39:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In-crudding-feckable. :smack: I know, right? You’ve been here sixteen years, and you still don’t know how to write an OP for Great Debates. How the fuck does that happen? ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/54 "2015-11-13T05:10:36Z")
If anyone is interested in being a little more outraged, I suggest reading [this article from Buzzfeed](http://www.buzzfeed.com/aramroston/fostering-profits) (they do have several really well-written and well-researched articles each week, amongst all the chaff) about “identified deaths, sex abuse, and blunders in screening, training, and overseeing foster parents at the nation’s largest for-profit foster care company.” I’ve only read that one article about the foster system and it has stuck with me. It was the first thing I thought of when I read this news from Utah today. Hetero foster parents are KILLING children and…this!!! Sick, is what it is. To rip a child from her perfectly good parents and possibly put her directly in to harm’s way is…sick. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/55 "2015-11-13T05:22:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A judge should be a neutral umpire. The judge may not personally agree with the rules he must use, but he must still follow them. > > This judge failed in that regard. > > I can only assume that his failure will be swiftly corrected by higher review. What does “swiftly” mean in a case like this? Would it be swift enough to return the child to the original foster parents perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/56 "2015-11-13T06:49:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m thinking whatever “research” he is relying on was sought after to bolster his own religious opinion. You are not the only one. One of the mothers said this, as quoted in the Washington Post: > [@](#): > > “I believe it’s a religious belief,” Peirce said. But this was strictly Peirce’s opinion, and what role judge’s religious beliefs may or may not have played on his decision is unclear. > > Johansen did receive his law degree from the Mormon Church’s Brigham Young University, and the region is heavily Mormon. Last week officials with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — the faith’s full name — confirmed it had made a change to its handbook to say children of same-sex couples cannot be blessed or baptized until they are 18. The decision is now facing wide protest from LGBT Mormons and their advocates. Last week an influential and popular Mormon themed podcast host John Dehlin, excommunicated this year for his support of LGBT rights, among other matters, published the normally kept secret changes to the handbook. The changes not only were as given, but also specified that any couples in same sex marriages were guilty of appostity and that their children could not receive baptism or even simply be blessed. They would have to wait until they are adults no longer living with their parents and they would have to denounce their parents’ same sex marriage. This has kicked up a huge shit storm in Mormondom and ex-Mormondom, sparking another round in the fight. This case is another example of how Mormon homophobic teachings from the pulpit are received by their members. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/57 "2015-11-13T08:38:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And, what _debate_ would result? > > “Yep. Yes. Correct. You’re right. Ok. Si. True. Absolutely. Ja. Yeah. Aye. I agree. You betcha!” > > Where’s the fucking _debate_? To be fair, I am sort of forming the idea that this is in fact **Czarcasm** ’s idea of the best kind of debate. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/58 "2015-11-13T08:48:08Z")
“Appostity?” ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/59 "2015-11-13T10:38:07Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > “Appostity?” “Apostasy.” Damn phone. The Mormon church had recently doubled down on gay marriage. They sort of cooled off things after it came out that the church and its members were the largest factor for Prop 8, but when SSM marriage was allowed in Utah by first by the local federal court and then allowed again when SCOTUS make its ruling this year. Dogs and cats lying down together and all that. I had to stop receiving receiving facebook feeds from all my Mormon relatives with all the antigay crap they would openly post. I still have a Mormon friend who is cool about it, so they aren’t all bigots, but there are plenty of them. This handbook change is big for Mormons because the charge is apostasy and not immoral action. This places people who had simply decided to marry the person they love in a worse position in the church than almost everyone else, law breakers and all. Someone who molests his daughter MAY be subject to church discipline and the punishment would likely be less than a married gay couple who MUST be disciplined, and is subject to automatic excommunication. It’s fucking insane. My father, a worthless piece of shit who physically, mentally and emotionally abused my mother and all of us kids, as well as molesting both my sisters and a cousin had a slap on his wrist where my sister and her partner of 25+ years would be subject to excommunication, were they to actually get married. I know of others in similar circumstances. For my sister and her partner, it doesn’t matter because they’ve both seen the light and left the brainwashing, but still, their are LGBT individuals who do still want to associate with that homophobic organization. OTOH, if my sisters someone were married and someone were to rat out them out to the local bishop, he would be obliged to start proceedings, despite their inactivity. This would hurt my still very Mormon mother. This kind of shit ruins families and causes such unnecessary pain. I can’t imagine how my mother is feeling now, hearing these things again in the news and blaming herself for raising apostate children. She’s told of how much it hurts her to have a gay daughter. Where did she get that self loathing from? So this Mormon asshole judge follows what the leaders are saying. No big surprise.Someone can come along and try to handwave the timing away, but with less than a week separating the well publicized leak of the secret handbook for local lay leaders and this Mormon judge’s ruling, you have to assume that the judge is simply following what is the apparent wish of his ecclesiastic leaders. The good news is that the state is appealing the ruling and with all the bad publicity it should be reversed fairly soon. Mormons really believe that if people just knew how wonderful they are, everyone would join, so they are really gun shy about negative news. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/60 "2015-11-13T11:27:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Hint cats and dogs living together mass hysteria. Then jazz, cubism and baggy pants showing underwear IIRC. But it’s been a while since I saw that movie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381.md?page=4)