# Utah Judge Takes Child From Lesbian Foster Parents **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 12, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381 "2015-11-12T16:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/61 "2015-11-13T15:29:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I know, right? You’ve been here sixteen years, and you still don’t know how to write an OP for Great Debates. How the fuck does that happen? Leaving aside what happened with this thread, my record in Great Debates isn’t half bad…if you had bothered to check. The only closing of one in the last few years was at my own request to start a new one on the same subject, and moves to the BBQ Pit? I’m still looking. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/62 "2015-11-13T15:43:05Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Is this a final order? Around here in family and juvenile cases only the final order is ever made public. I’m not sure what the type of case this was, but the final order in this case would likely be the adoption order or the guardianship order for the heterosexual couple. Presumably it’s a final order for appellate purposes because it adjudicates all the rights of the same-sex couple. I’m sure the judge has retained jurisdiction for re-placement purposes but if it’s not a final order then I would assume the child would stay with the lesbian couple until a final placement was made. > [@](#): > > Now suppose (and I am not saying these studies are valid) the judge accepts a study that shows that homosexual couples, in general, are worse at raising children than heterosexual couples. May he use that as a factor, in addition to those above, in his or her judgment? Could the judge also say that being from North X is a factor? I suppose it would have to do with the reasons underlying the study, but my guess is that homosexuality will not be allowed to be considered, studies be damned. Thanks to Kennedy’s fence-sitting, I think it’s too early to say for sure what the overall implications of Obergefell will be for adoption proceedings. What bothers me about _this_ case is that (AIUI) the judge was not weighing alternatives. This wasn’t a custody dispute; it wasn’t a competition between two couples to adopt the child; it was a unilateral adoption proceeding. In other words, the judge seems to have categorically ruled that same-sex couples can never be fit parents. Assuming reliable research on same-sex parenting exists, I would not personally be opposed to courts using that as a factor in making custody decisions. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/63 "2015-11-13T15:45:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Leaving aside what happened with this thread, my record in Great Debates isn’t half bad…if you had bothered to check. The only closing of one in the last few years was at my own request to start a new one on the same subject, and moves to the BBQ Pit? I’m still looking. We’re just wondering why you opened a debate on a subject that wasn’t likely to have much support for one of the sides. It does sound like more of a Pit subject than a debate. But there was something to discuss about the follow-up and how the state and justice system would handle it. So it’s like, you know, hot-button issue, Dopers, low hanging fruit, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/64 "2015-11-13T18:07:25Z")
[Same judge has revered the order.](http://www.sfchronicle.com/news/us/article/Utah-judge-s-reverses-order-to-take-baby-from-6630017.php) ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/65 "2015-11-13T18:11:43Z")
Is that enough to legally keep him from being sanctioned? Or is the original order enough to move forward with a review? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/66 "2015-11-13T18:22:01Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > Is that enough to legally keep him from being sanctioned? Or is the original order enough to move forward with a review? I’m hoping it doesn’t go any further than this. The last thing we need is for this doofus to become a cause for the religious right and certain politicos to rally behind, much like what happened with a certain county clerk and her “gay marriage license” fiasco. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/67 "2015-11-13T18:29:39Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > [Same judge has revered the order.](http://www.sfchronicle.com/news/us/article/Utah-judge-s-reverses-order-to-take-baby-from-6630017.php) Not enough to keep him from reversing it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/68 "2015-11-13T18:35:05Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > Is that enough to legally keep him from being sanctioned? Or is the original order enough to move forward with a review? It depends on the relevant rules of procedure, but in most jurisdictions this will moot the issue that would have been on appeal and the appeal would be dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/69 "2015-11-13T19:42:05Z")
Did you see their picture? Two more normal looking people in the whole world? I think that’s what undermines the evil message more than all of our efforts to scold people into accepting “not normal” as normal. They could be any two moderately frumpy housewives at Wal Mart. Scary, they are not. Good. Good for them, good for the rest of us, good for the kid. Sometimes, the good guys win. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/70 "2015-11-13T20:06:27Z")
They haven’t won yet. As I understand it, the judge has merely rescinded “the removal of the child within one week.” The issue of final adoption is still up in the air. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/71 "2015-11-13T20:27:22Z")
[Mormons marching against the Church’s stance.](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34815338) I’m posting it because the sign all the way on the left is hilarious: “My gay son said there would be donuts.” ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/72 "2015-11-13T21:55:29Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > [Mormons marching against the Church’s stance.](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34815338) > > I’m posting it because the sign all the way on the left is hilarious: “My gay son said there would be donuts.” [There’s an attorney willing to send the relevant resignation letter and deal with the backlash for free.](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/3c1kua/utah_attorney_willing_to_send_your_exit_letter/) From the Reddit post: > [@chubs\_gato](#): > > I realize that many people are afraid to deal with the shit storm that sometimes accompanies sending in your resignation letter. I have represented at least 10 other people in submitting their letters. Sometimes, it is helpful to be able to say “Take it up with my attorney.” > > Well, I am that attorney. Licensed in 3 states and here for any one who wants me to submit the letter on their behalf. How much this actually, practically means I have no idea. It seems to be a genuinely popular thread with serious up-take. I mainly just find it interesting. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/73 "2015-11-13T23:45:33Z")
I’m going to say, “see, I told you” about the speed of the stay. They wanted to get this off page one as soon as possible. > [@Derleth](#): > > [There’s an attorney willing to send the relevant resignation letter and deal with the backlash for free.](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/3c1kua/utah_attorney_willing_to_send_your_exit_letter/) > > From the Reddit post:How much this actually, practically means I have no idea. It seems to be a genuinely popular thread with serious up-take. I mainly just find it interesting. Legally, there is no need for an attorney. Once a person resigns from a church, they have quit. This was no always the case, they used to no allow resignations, but a Supreme Court cases ruled against another church which refused to allow a person to resign and instead excommunicated them. However, it can be a pain in the ass to resign from the Mormon church. Although you are technically no longer a member once they receive the letter or email from you, they have long steps which they claim are required, including wanting you to talk to the leader of the local congregation and a “waiting period.” So while having an attorney write the letter isn’t necessary, it removes the hoops which they attempt to force uninformed members to jump through. On news about the church changing some of the new rules, they have “clarified” a few of them to make them seem softer, but didn’t change much. As I posted earlier, these rules are receiving a lot of criticisms from many members. There has been an increase in resignations lately which is working to offset growth. The Mormon church used to be one of the faster growing religions, but it’s close to flat lining now. Despite the 80,000 missionaries and having a higher than average birth rate, the percent of members isn’t growing any faster than the population growth in the US, is actually declining in some countries such as in Western Europe, Japan, Korea and only sees high growth in Africa and some other third world countries. In news about the adaption, > [@](#): > > The ruling prompted the Human Rights Campaign, the nation’s largest gay and transgender rights advocacy group, to file a formal complaint against Johansen with Utah’s Judicial Conduct Commission calling for an investigation into what it said was a “clear violation” of rules prohibiting discrimination in judicial decision-making. > > “We urge the commission to act expeditiously to investigate Judge Johansen’s actions and to impose appropriate sanctions if it is determined that this decision was in fact based on biased,” the HRC’s letter to the commission states. It goes on. > [@](#): > > In his original order, Johansen said he didn’t believe that would be best for the girl, saying it was his “belief that research has shown children are more emotionally and mentally stable” when raised by heterosexual parents, and that same sex unions have “double” the rate of instability. > > The order also says “the emotional problems suffers by children in same sex relationships increase by a factor of four compared to children raised by heterosexual couples.” > > Johansen declined to identify or provide specific citations for the research despite requests from attorneys, the order notes. > > In the amended document, however, Johansen has scratched out most of that language, including the word “belief,” which he has replaced with “concern.” > > State law formerly prohibited gay and lesbian couples from adopting or fostering children, but that changed when the U.S. Supreme Court in June upheld the right of same-sex couples to marry. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/74 "2015-11-13T23:45:39Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > If anyone is interested in being a little more outraged, I suggest reading [this article from Buzzfeed](http://www.buzzfeed.com/aramroston/fostering-profits) (they do have several really well-written and well-researched articles each week, amongst all the chaff) about "identified deaths, sex abuse, and blunders in screening, training, and overseeing foster parents at the nation’s largest **for-profit foster care company."** > > I’ve only read that one article about the foster system and it has stuck with me. It was the first thing I thought of when I read this news from Utah today. Hetero foster parents are KILLING children and…this!!! > > Sick, is what it is. To rip a child from her perfectly good parents and possibly put her directly in to harm’s way is…sick. The bolded bit almost disturbs me more than anything else about that post. There’s such a thing?! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/75 "2015-11-14T03:53:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Leaving aside what happened with this thread, my record in Great Debates isn’t half bad…if you had bothered to check. The only closing of one in the last few years was at my own request to start a new one on the same subject, and moves to the BBQ Pit? I’m still looking. His point is that you wrote a OP that would only fit in the Pit, and seem surprised that it was moved there. Your OP is a rant, not a call for debate. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/76 "2015-11-14T12:50:29Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Legally, there is no need for an attorney. I agree. > [@](#): > > Once a person resigns from a church, they have quit. This was no always the case, they used to no allow resignations, but a Supreme Court cases ruled against another church which refused to allow a person to resign and instead excommunicated them. This would surprise me, if true. As a matter of First Amendment law, I would expect that any church would be completely free to excommunicate any person instead of permitting them to resign. I am always willing to be educated, though. What Supreme Court case was that? > [@](#): > > However, it can be a pain in the ass to resign from the Mormon church. Although you are technically no longer a member once they receive the letter or email from you, they have long steps which they claim are required, including wanting you to talk to the leader of the local congregation and a “waiting period.” Again, the First Amendment should protect any church’s claim that long steps are required against any law or government action that mandated no such steps. In turn, of course, no law could force an individual to undergo any such steps, long or otherwise. In other words, the individual is free to resign and simply end contact with the church; the church is free to declare that anyone doing so is excommunicated, and I would be very surprised to learn of any US-based final court decisions to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/77 "2015-11-14T13:23:04Z")
Re leaving the Mormon church – my understanding is that you need to write them a letter to be removed from their rolls, and that it’s easier to do this than it used to be. But it’s easy to quit. You can just stop going, stop calling yourself a Mormon, and stop giving them money. If you walk away like that, but you are still on the Mormon church’s rolls, they will send representatives to talk to you from time to time. You can tell those people to go away, or refuse to answer the door, of course. My local Jehovah’s Witnesses sends people to talk to me even though we have never had any relationship, and what the Mormons do isn’t any more intrusive than that. Many lapsed Mormons DO talk to the missionaries, (or teachers, or whatever they are called), though, because they bring cookies, are willing to chat with a lonely housewife about non-Mormon issues, and sometimes offer the help of the local Mormons if there’s been a house fire or some other catastrophe where a lot of labor would be useful. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/78 "2015-11-14T15:04:43Z")
I have talked to some rabid anti-abortion picketers. The ones that scream adoption until you put the word “gay” in front of it. Yeah, right, they only approve adoption to the “right” people. And I’ve been told that gay adoption is child abuse because “children need a mother and a father.” When I asked one of them how he was raised, he said “By a single mother after my father deserted her.” So his mother is a child abuser? Child need GOOD parents. Not perfect, but good. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/79 "2015-11-14T20:29:12Z")
> [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](#): > > To be fair, I am sort of forming the idea that this is in fact **Czarcasm** ’s idea of the best kind of debate. \*Touché! \*😃 ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-judge-takes-child-from-lesbian-foster-parents/737381/80 "2015-11-16T00:10:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This would surprise me, if true. As a matter of First Amendment law, I would expect that any church would be completely free to excommunicate any person instead of permitting them to resign. I am always willing to be educated, though. What Supreme Court case was that? It looks like I had misremembered from several years ago. It was an Oklahoma Supreme Court [case](http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?citeid=10494) where a woman sued for invasion of privacy and damage from intentional infliction of emotional damage from publicly announcing her excommunication and the reason for it in what had been her local church and several others in the area after she attempted to resign. Summarized [here](http://www.mormonnomore.com/legal-precedent) > [@](#): > > Marian Guinn, a member of the Church of Christ of Collinsville, OK, hand delivered her resignation to the minister after he told her he was going to excommunicate her for fornication. The minister refused to honor the resignation, went ahead with the ‘excommunication’ and then announced it from the pulpit. Guinn sued and was awarded $390,000. On appeal the Oklahoma Supreme Court ruled that Guinn’s resignation was effective immediately and that anything the church or the minister did after the minister received Guinn’s resignation was tortable. In other words, she could sue for anything they did after she resigned. The court ruled that with her resignation Guinn withdrew her consent to being treated as a member and she withdrew her consent to being subject to church discipline. The case was actually remanded back to the lower court for a new trial to be confined to actionable postwithdrawal conduct. From the file. > [@Oklahoma Supreme Court ruling](#): > > AFTER PARISHIONER WITHDREW HER MEMBERSHIP FROM THE COLLINSVILLE CHURCH OF CHRIST. THE ELDERS WERE NEITHER ABSOLUTELY NOR CONDITIONALLY PRIVILEGED TO PUBLICIZE PRIVATE FACTS ABOUT HER LIFE. > > ¶51 According to the Restatement (Second) of Torts, the “absolute” and “conditional” privileges to publicize defamatory matter apply to causes of action under invasion of privacy.68 An absolute privilege will provide a defense to a claim of invasion of privacy by publication of private facts if the complainant consented to the publication. Parishioner’s withdrawal from the Collinsville Church of Christ put an end to her membership in that religious body. The law presumes that during the [775 P.2d 784] time she was a member of the church she voluntarily submitted to all known tenets of congregational discipline. This principle is, of course, but an adaptation of the general common-law doctrine known as volenti non fit injuria.69 > > ¶52 We have determined that when Parishioner withdrew from the Church by her September 25 letter she effectively revoked any consent upon which the Elders could have based a defense of “absolute privilege” to share Parishioner’s private life with the Collinsville congregation.70 “Conditional privileges” to publicize personal matters about another person’s life are not based on or derived from that person’s consent. There are certain “occasions” which give rise to a conditional privilege to publicize private facts about another person.71 If the publication is made on a privileged occasion and the privilege is not abused, the “publisher” is not liable.72 > > ¶53 Under § 59673 of the Restatement (Second) of Torts a publication is conditionally privileged if the “circumstances [under which the information is published] lead any one of several persons having a common interest in a particular subject matter correctly or reasonably to believe that there is information that another sharing the common interest is entitled to know.” The Elders claim that under this section, the worship service, during which facts about Parishioner’s private life were publicized, was an “occasion” that provided them with the privilege to communicate this information to the Collinsville congregation. > > ¶54 Comment (e) of § 596 of the Restatement (Second) of Torts, specifically addresses “privileged occasions” in the context of religious associations.74 Under this “common interest” type of “privileged occasion,” the [775 P.2d 785] Elders were not privileged to publicize private facts about Parishioner’s life.75 Because Parishioner was neither a “present” nor a “prospective” church member at the time of the Elders’ publication, the members of the Collinsville congregation did not share the sort of “common interest” in Parishioner’s behavior that would render the occasion of the publication "privileged."76 Communicating unproven allegations of a present or prospective member’s misconduct to the other members of a religious association is a privileged occasion because the members have a valid interest in and concern for the behavior of their fellow members and officers. The Elders’ defense of “privilege,” as it pertains to their actions occurring after Parishioner’s withdrawal of membership, is without merit. So, you are correct, the church can go ahead and excommunicate a former member who has elected to resign, but in doing so they no longer are able to perform public actions with impunity. > [@](#): > > Again, the First Amendment should protect any church’s claim that long steps are required against any law or government action that mandated no such steps. In turn, of course, no law could force an individual to undergo any such steps, long or otherwise. > > In other words, the individual is free to resign and simply end contact with the church; the church is free to declare that anyone doing so is excommunicated, and I would be very surprised to learn of any US-based final court decisions to the contrary. The key here is that the churches cannot treat the individual the same as they would a member without the risk of a lawsuit if that action harms the individual through public shaming, for example. There was a similar case against the Mormon church in which an Arizona man facing church discipline attempted to resign, but the church went ahead and excommunicated him. The case was settled out of court and the church agreed to change his status from excommunicated. This incident also involved defamation of character. Before this incident, LDS members were not allowed to have their names removed through voluntarily resignation, but that a church court was required. After the suit was settled, the policy was changed, allowing resignations. In practice, what this means is that people submit a resignation letter, the local leaders will contact the individual to ensure they intend to resign and will often try to guilt the person into staying or will tell them that they must meet to demonstrate why they no longer wish to remain. I read about cases where people who have lost patience then tell the leader to speed up the process or they will involve their attorneys, which seems to magically work. There are also times where local leaders follow the person’s wishes and remove their name, but this is really up to the local leader. The attorney who volunteered his services was simply helping the individuals avoid local leader roulette. When the church central office receives these letters, they will flag it so that the local leaders know to stop playing games. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > But it’s easy to quit. You can just stop going, stop calling yourself a Mormon, and stop giving them money. If you walk away like that, but you are still on the Mormon church’s rolls, they will send representatives to talk to you from time to time. You can tell those people to go away, or refuse to answer the door, of course. My local Jehovah’s Witnesses sends people to talk to me even though we have never had any relationship, and what the Mormons do isn’t any more intrusive than that. Naturally, if you decide you no longer want to be considered a member, you can simply decide that without any paperwork. That’s how I handled it. It did piss me off when they tracked me down in Tokyo, despite never informing them of my moving there. I would tell them to not bother me and then a couple of months later a new missionary would move in and see if he could convince me. Once people have left a religion and have asked to be left alone, they really should be left alone. I don’t see why that is so hard to understand for the organization. Well I do, but I wish they could see beyond their narrow focus. 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