# Utah law to criminalize miscarriages **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298 "2010-02-24T19:39:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/21 "2010-02-24T22:57:44Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I admit ignorance - there’s something in a constiturion explicitly legalizing first-trimester induced miscarriages? There is for an abortion, which is nothing more than an “induced miscarriage”. Now, if a 3rd party is involved who is not a licenses physician, then practicing medicine w/o a license comes into play. > [@](#): > > So. With this law, how is it to be enforced? What will constitute reasonable suspicion of foul play? Woman seen climbing stairs? Woman drinks coffee? Woman seen buying aspirin? Woman heard seriously remarking that she wished she could get an abortion? (Don’t laugh - I bet that would turn heads in a murder case.) I think the issue here would be like gunshot wounds. IIRC, most states require doctors to report all gunshot wounds to the police. Unless there is a requirement written into the law like that, then it would be up to some 3rd party to actively press charges against the woman-- presumably her husband, parents or someone else. So, it’s up to **Annie-Xmas** to show us where that enforcement mechanism is written into the law, not just to state that it must be there. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/22 "2010-02-24T23:07:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is for an abortion, which is nothing more than an “induced miscarriage”. Now, if a 3rd party is involved who is not a licenses physician, then practicing medicine w/o a license comes into play. I’m having trouble believing you’re serious here. _Punching somebody_ is practicing medicine without a liscence? If you’re trying to argue by sarcasm against your stated position, then it’s working. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think the issue here would be like gunshot wounds. IIRC, most states require doctors to report all gunshot wounds to the police. Unless there is a requirement written into the law like that, then it would be up to some 3rd party to actively press charges against the woman-- presumably her husband, parents or someone else. So, it’s up to **Annie-Xmas** to show us where that enforcement mechanism is written into the law, not just to state that it must be there. Again - gunshot woulds? What exactly is the “gunshot wound” for the miscarriage? What _could be_ the clear suspicion-causing peice of evidence to look for? Putting aside the absurdity, we’re left with “somebody accuses the woman of it”. How is she supposed to argue against that? “I didn’t drink coffee, officer, I swear!” Sounds like witch-hunt fodder to me. Pro-choice woman has a miscarriage, is accused of inducing it by local preacher, dragged off to jail. Film at 11. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/23 "2010-02-24T23:09:01Z")
What would this mean for a woman making a suicide attempt while pregnant? Sounds like its potentially criminalising mental health to me. Otara ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/24 "2010-02-24T23:24:30Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m having trouble believing you’re serious here. _Punching somebody_ is practicing medicine without a liscence? > > If you’re trying to argue by sarcasm against your stated position, then it’s working. If the 3rd party tried to argue that he didn’t assault her or the fetus, he was just helping her have an abortion. Non-physicians can’t perform medical procedures. > [@](#): > > Again - gunshot woulds? What exactly is the “gunshot wound” for the miscarriage? What _could be_ the clear suspicion-causing peice of evidence to look for? It would be the miscarriage itself. Doctors would be required to report every miscarriage to the police. Does this law require that? > [@](#): > > Putting aside the absurdity, we’re left with “somebody accuses the woman of it”. How is she supposed to argue against that? “I didn’t drink coffee, officer, I swear!” > > Sounds like witch-hunt fodder to me. Pro-choice woman has a miscarriage, is accused of inducing it by local preacher, dragged off to jail. Film at 11. The same can be said of child abuse laws. And yet they’re still on the books. Any law can be abused. Anyway, that’s tangential to the issue that was being debated-- whether or not all miscarriages would have to be investigated. I’ve seen no proof of that other than a few people making arguments that don’t stand upto any type of scrutiny. Where’s the proof? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/25 "2010-02-24T23:49:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Anyway, that’s tangential to the issue that was being debated-- whether or not all miscarriages would have to be investigated. I’ve seen no proof of that other than a few people making arguments that don’t stand upto any type of scrutiny. Where’s the proof? Forget about that, what about the possibility that any miscarriage COULD be investigated? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/26 "2010-02-24T23:55:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The same can be said of child abuse laws. And yet they’re still on the books. Any law can be abused. > > Anyway, that’s tangential to the issue that was being debated-- whether or not all miscarriages would have to be investigated. I’ve seen no proof of that other than a few people making arguments that don’t stand upto any type of scrutiny. Where’s the proof? I concede. Not all miscarriages will be investigated. The law will only be invoked in cases of specific witch-hunting. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/27 "2010-02-25T00:08:19Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > It’s the “reckless act” that’s causing people the most concern. To prove it, all one needs to show is that a woman behaved in a manner that is thought to cause miscarriage. Intent to actually cause miscarriage plays no part in it. > Based upon the proposed law, a woman who rode without a seatbelt and got into a car accident suffering a miscarriage could be charged under this law. > A woman who drank during pregnancy, painted a house, took an Aspirin without her doctor’s permission, [accidently fell down some stairs](http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2010/02/15/its-illegal-37-states-for-a-pregnant-woman-fall-down-stairs), or stayed with an abusive boyfriend, can all be charged under this new law. > It’s possible the prosecutor need not link up the risky behavior as a direct cause of the miscarriage. > > Thoughts? “Reckless” has a precise legal definintion which does not match what intraweb pundits (and several in this thread) have decided it means, making this a non-story. It’s the same term used in almost every avenue of criminal law, including murder, criminal damage, and many others, and is totally applicable to any act requiring intention. In short: don’t read legislative summaries in the press, think you know what the common usage of a word is, apply that as a legal definition to a statute you haven’t even read, and pass a moral judgement and condemn lawmakers. Because the likelihood is that that random word that press agency X plucked out of a document means something else both (a) in context and (b) in a legal sense as opposed to the way you use it in the supermarket. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/28 "2010-02-25T00:12:01Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > Forget about that, what about the possibility that any miscarriage COULD be investigated? I don’t know. I think this is a bad, unconstitutional law. I’m not arguing in favor of it. I’m not, however, aware of problems in other states when similar laws are restricted to the 3rd trimester. ---
**Author:** ![kingbighair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/29 "2010-02-25T00:18:15Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > It’s the “reckless act” that’s causing people the most concern. To prove it, all one needs to show is that a woman behaved in a manner that is thought to cause miscarriage. Intent to actually cause miscarriage plays no part in it. > Based upon the proposed law, a woman who rode without a seatbelt and got into a car accident suffering a miscarriage could be charged under this law. > A woman who drank during pregnancy, painted a house, took an Aspirin without her doctor’s permission, [accidently fell down some stairs](http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2010/02/15/its-illegal-37-states-for-a-pregnant-woman-fall-down-stairs), or stayed with an abusive boyfriend, can all be charged under this new law. > It’s possible the prosecutor need not link up the risky behavior as a direct cause of the miscarriage. > > Thoughts? I’m not so sure these would fall under “reckless” as applied in the legal context. “Reckless” is not a gut feeling. It is defined by statute. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/30 "2010-02-25T00:24:48Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Every single time I post that if the fetus is granetd all rights to person hood this is exactly what will happen, people say “prove it.” If the fetus is a person and the woman miscarriages, maybe she took an asprin or a sip of coffee or “had bad thoughts” about the baby. Of course. Because right now, when anyone dies, there’s an investigation to see if anyone thought bad thoughts about the deceased, and if anyone did, they are charged with manslaughter. So it only makes sense to extend the protection against bad thoughts to the unborn. Or, and I’m just spitballin’ here, maybe this possibility about “bad thoughts” that you raise is kinda sorta exaggerated. But in defense of the right to abortion, no untruth is really unjustified, since it’s for a good cause. ---
**Author:** ![kingbighair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/31 "2010-02-25T00:27:37Z")
Damn you **Candyman74**. 😉 Missed the edit window. I suppose I’ll add some clarification. Utah Criminal Code 76-2-103: > [@](#): > > A person engages in conduct: > > (1) Intentionally, or with intent or willfully with respect to the nature of his conduct or to a result of his conduct, when it is his conscious objective or desire to engage in the conduct or cause the result. > > (2) Knowingly, or with knowledge, with respect to his conduct or to circumstances surrounding his conduct when he is aware of the nature of his conduct or the existing circumstances. A person acts knowingly, or with knowledge, with respect to a result of his conduct when he is aware that his conduct is reasonably certain to cause the result. > > **(3) Recklessly with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the result of his conduct when he is aware of but consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that its disregard constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the actor’s standpoint.** > > (4) With criminal negligence or is criminally negligent with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the result of his conduct when he ought to be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. The risk must be of a nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise in all the circumstances as viewed from the actor’s standpoint. The proposed law might alter the definition of reckless. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/32 "2010-02-25T00:38:27Z")
God takes care of this very clearly, in such a state that is know for following biblical principals it is pretty clear that human intervention for any intentional killing of the unborn is covered by: [QUOTE= Deuteronomy 30:19] This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live [/QUOTE] Anyone who takes the life of their child will fall under the above, unless under the grace of Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/33 "2010-02-25T00:41:30Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God takes care of this very clearly, in such a state that is know for following biblical principals it is pretty clear that human intervention for any intentional killing of the unborn is covered by: Even assuming that God actually existed, so what? This isn’t supposed to be a theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/34 "2010-02-25T00:45:50Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God takes care of this very clearly, in such a state that is know for following biblical principals it is pretty clear that human intervention for any intentional killing of the unborn is covered by: > Anyone who takes the life of their child will fall under the above, unless under the grace of Christ. Darn my browser, some glitch removed the word “unborn” from that scriptural quote, making your argument look completely ruined. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/35 "2010-02-25T02:07:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If the 3rd party tried to argue that he didn’t assault her or the fetus, he was just helping her have an abortion. Non-physicians can’t perform medical procedures. Maybe it was just really really rough sex. That’s neither assault or a medical procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/36 "2010-02-25T02:14:11Z")
Huzzah! Hurrah! A great day in American history. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/37 "2010-02-25T02:31:03Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Huzzah! Hurrah! A great day in American history. Well, Utahian history, at least. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/38 "2010-02-25T02:34:47Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Huzzah! Hurrah! A great day in American history. Yes, it’s always a wonderful day when the rights of woman are abridged on the concept that an unborn fetus takes precedence over her autonomy. It speaks loudly as to the truth of the “pro-life” agenda that this is the response they have to the case of a 17 year old girl who was so desperate to retain normalcy in her life that she _asked someone to assault her_ to try to cause a late-term miscarriage. They don’t think about how to make it more possible for a 17 year old to safely terminate her pregnancy. They don’t think about how to make it more possible for a 17 year old to obtain contraceptives to avoid pregnancy. (Minors need parental permission for both birth control and abortion in Utah.) They think about how to put women driven to desperate acts in jail. Convince me, someone, that this agenda isn’t driven by a need to punish women who dare step out of a carefully prescribed notion of propriety, chastity and obsequiousness? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/39 "2010-02-25T02:40:34Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Yes, it’s always a wonderful day when the rights of woman are abridged on the concept that an unborn fetus takes precedence over her autonomy. > > It speaks loudly as to the truth of the “pro-life” agenda that this is the response they have to the case of a 17 year old girl who was so desperate to retain normalcy in her life that she _asked someone to assault her_ to try to cause a late-term miscarriage. They don’t think about how to make it more possible for a 17 year old to safely terminate her pregnancy. They don’t think about how to make it more possible for a 17 year old to obtain contraceptives to avoid pregnancy. (Minors need parental permission for both birth control and abortion in Utah.) They think about how to put women driven to desperate acts in jail. > > Convince me, someone, that this agenda isn’t driven by a need to punish women who dare step out of a carefully prescribed notion of propriety, chastity and obsequiousness? Look, I think this law is fucking retarded, but you do know that the other side views abortion as murder, right? If it’s murder than your entire post is lunacy. “How dare you have a law against murder when a 17 year old is so desperate to have a normal life that she’d be driven to kill her brother/uncle/whatever.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/40 "2010-02-25T02:42:35Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Yes, it’s always a wonderful day when the rights of woman are abridged on the concept that an unborn fetus takes precedence over her autonomy. > > It speaks loudly as to the truth of the “pro-life” agenda that this is the response they have to the case of a 17 year old girl who was so desperate to retain normalcy in her life that she _asked someone to assault her_ to try to cause a late-term miscarriage. They don’t think about how to make it more possible for a 17 year old to safely terminate her pregnancy. They don’t think about how to make it more possible for a 17 year old to obtain contraceptives to avoid pregnancy. (Minors need parental permission for both birth control and abortion in Utah.) They think about how to put women driven to desperate acts in jail. > > Convince me, someone, that this agenda isn’t driven by a need to punish women who dare step out of a carefully prescribed notion of propriety, chastity and obsequiousness? She may have been a confused teenager, but this was a 3rds trimester termination. Most people are not going to condone that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298.md?page=3)