# Utah law to criminalize miscarriages **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298 "2010-02-24T19:39:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/41 "2010-02-25T02:58:41Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > It speaks loudly as to the truth of the “pro-life” agenda that this is the response they have to the case of a 17 year old girl who was so desperate to retain normalcy in her life that she _asked someone to assault her_ to try to cause a late-term miscarriage. You’ve got to be kidding. How much “normalcy” do you think was in this dipshit’s life before she came up with this bright idea? She was in her third trimester. > [@](#): > > They don’t think about how to make it more possible for a 17 year old to safely terminate her pregnancy. She had six fucking months to safely terminate her pregnancy. She waited until she was past the point where even the Supreme Court thinks abortion is a bit more significant than getting your stomach pumped. Look, the law can’t fix stupid. The (badly written) article in the OP says, quite clearly and explicitly, > [@](#): > > The bill does not affect legally obtained abortions So every dim little twit in Utah can merrily fuck her way across Salt Lake City, with or without a condom, and nobody turns a hair. But when she waits until it is way too late and hires some asshole to beat her up, because she can’t figure out the bus schedule for seven months, and we get all these horseshit scenarios about how we are going to send women to prison because they drank a half espresso latte, even though > [@](#): > > The bill does exempt from prosecution fetal deaths due to failure to follow medical advice, accept treatment, or refuse a cesarean section. > [@](#): > > Convince me, someone, that this agenda isn’t driven by a need to punish women who dare step out of a carefully prescribed notion of propriety, chastity and obsequiousness? By hiring someone to beat you with a stick so you can abort? Convince me you’re serious. Good luck, you’ve got quite an uphill climb. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/42 "2010-02-25T04:25:07Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > There have been laws specifically criminalizing miscarriages before? [Feticide](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feticide) – e.g., you kick a pregnant woman in the belly and it causes her to miscarry – has been a crime in most states for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Nicest\_of\_the\_Damned](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8baadc/32.png) [@Nicest\_of\_the\_Damned](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nicest_of_the_Damned)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/43 "2010-02-25T06:13:27Z")
Potential unintended consequence, if a woman in Utah is faced with an unwanted pregnancy and on the fence about whether to abort or give birth and give the baby up for adoption, this would be one point toward just getting the abortion. Granted there probably won’t be lots of people who will make their choice based only on this law but if it were me I’d certainly take it into consideration. Especially if it was expected to be a high risk pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/44 "2010-02-25T07:16:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How much “normalcy” do you think was in this dipshit’s life before she came up with this bright idea? She was in her third trimester. > She had six fucking months to safely terminate her pregnancy. As crazy as it sounds, it appears that the state of Utah would not have allowed her to have a legal abortion at any time without written parental consent. She did still have six months to get someone to punch her, but I would understand if she spent the first six months in a state of shock that a state in the modern USA could prevent her from having a legal abortion. Also, the punching alternative isn’t exactly something you would jump on right away. That is the kind of thing you really need to be driven into over the course of months of helplessness and disbelief. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/45 "2010-02-25T07:31:51Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Look, I think this law is fucking retarded, but you do know that the other side views abortion as murder, right? If it’s murder than your entire post is lunacy. “How dare you have a law against murder when a 17 year old is so desperate to have a normal life that she’d be driven to kill her brother/uncle/whatever.” Except that’s just not how it works. Not in theory, not in practice. That’s why couching this debate in this bullshit terminology about murder is so repellent. It’s nothing but an appeal to emotion intended to shut down discussion. If it’s murder, nothing else matters. It’s bad faith rhetoric of the worst sort. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > She may have been a confused teenager, but this was a 3rds trimester termination. Most people are not going to condone that. But this law doesn’t have a word in it about trimesters or anything else. If she’d been in her third week and had someone beat her to try to cause a miscarriage, she could be charged and face the potential of life in prison. This, along with the weasel language regarding “recklessness” is why this bill is so very onerous. > [@Shodan](#): > > You’ve got to be kidding. > > How much “normalcy” do you think was in this dipshit’s life before she came up with this bright idea? She was in her third trimester. Yes, she was in her third trimester, because contraceptives and abortion were not legally available to her. But there can be some semblance of normalcy in a pregnant woman’s life, especially if she’s hiding it, which by all accounts, the girl was. Keeping up the appearance of normal was probably an overwhelming concern. But hiding a pregnancy is possible, hiding a baby, not so much. She was running out of time because she never really had any options to begin with. > [@](#): > > She had six fucking months to safely terminate her pregnancy. No she didn’t. She was 17. She didn’t have **any** time in which **she** could do anything. Utah law states that her body is not her own, that her choice is not her own and puts other people in charge of her uterus. > [@](#): > > She waited until she was past the point where even the Supreme Court thinks abortion is a bit more significant than getting your stomach pumped. Could you be a little more condescendingly offensive? I don’t think so. > [@](#): > > Look, the law can’t fix stupid. The (badly written) article in the OP says, quite clearly and explicitly, So every dim little twit in Utah can merrily fuck her way across Salt Lake City, with or without a condom, and nobody turns a hair. Wow, and this totally isn’t about slut shaming, not at all. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > But when she waits until it is way too late and hires some asshole to beat her up, because she can’t figure out the bus schedule for seven months, One more time. Abortion was not an option for her. Contraceptives were not an option for her. That’s Utah law already. No one couldn’t figure out the bus schedule. > [@](#): > > and we get all these horseshit scenarios about how we are going to send women to prison because they drank a half espresso latte, even though The law specifically includes “reckless” behavior without defining what is reckless where a pregnant woman is concerned. Maybe it’s not drinking a latte, but applying the same illogic that is behind the Utah law, [a woman was arrested last month in Iowa for admitting, after falling down a flight of stairs, that she was unsure about continuing her pregnancy](http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2010/02/15/its-illegal-37-states-for-a-pregnant-woman-fall-down-stairs). The charges against that woman were only dropped because the Iowa law specified limits regarding trimesters. The Utah law does not specify nor draw any distinction between a pregnancy before the point of viability nor apply any of the state’s limits to when a medical termination can take place. > [@](#): > > By hiring someone to beat you with a stick so you can abort? Desperate people do desperate things. In this case, the legislature has within its power the ability to reduce the likelihood of other Utahn women ever becoming that desperate – by increasing access to contraceptives and increasing, not decreasing, access to safe, legal abortions for any woman who needs one, regardless of age or economic status. But they cannot or will not do so, and do this instead, not merely punishing women who take the bad options when they have no good options, but endangering the liberties of women who have actually done nothing wrong at all. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/46 "2010-02-25T13:02:14Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Yes, she was in her third trimester, because contraceptives and abortion were not legally available to her. You think she couldn’t buy a condom? > [@The ACLU](#): > > Today, in every state, sexually active teenagers can get contraceptives to protect themselves against unplanned pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases - even if they can’t talk about sex with their parents. [Cite.](http://www.aclu.org/reproductive-freedom/preventing-teenagers-getting-contraceptives-unless-they-tell-parent-puts-teens-) > [@](#): > > Currently, there are no state laws that bar minors’ access to confidential contraceptive care [Cite](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/456472_6). > [@](#): > > Although minor access to contraception is a heavily debated topic, access for minors (under age 18) is currently protected by state and federal law. Minors are legally able to access family planning services without parental consent in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. [Cite](http://www.sph.emory.edu/WHP/documents/2008_session/Parental_Consent_gcapp.pdf). > [@](#): > > No she didn’t. She was 17. She didn’t have **any** time in which **she** could do anything. Time doesn’t pass any differently for a teen ager than for a normal person. She had two full trimesters. She did not attempt to obtain a safe, legal abortion - she waited until her baby was viable and then hired someone to try to beat it out of her. This is [list=A][li]stupid, [_]irresponsible, and [_]ineffective - she later gave birth.[/list][/li] > [@](#): > > Desperate people do desperate things. And stupid people do stupid ones. Passing a law to try to keep the stupid ones from behaving stupidly may trigger hysteria, but when the law says - > [@](#): > > The bill does not affect legally obtained abortions it is no more than that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/47 "2010-02-25T13:22:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > She did not attempt to obtain a safe, legal abortion - she waited until her baby was viable and then hired someone to try to beat it out of her. How do you know that? She may have been prevented by her parents. She may not have had the money. She may have simply been unable to reach one; there’s only 6 in the state. She lives in a state that does everything it can legally get away with to prevent women from getting abortions, and harass and humiliate them in the process. > [@Shodan](#): > > Passing a law to try to keep the stupid ones from behaving stupidly may trigger hysteria, but when the law says -it is no more than that. No. As these anti-abortion laws always do, this law has one purpose only; to punish women. Throwing some poor woman who miscarries into prison - possibly for life - won’t do anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/48 "2010-02-25T13:27:59Z")
There was a thread recently on whether I.Q. tests should be required to qualify someone for seeking the Presidency. While I am against that, I think it would be appropriate to do sophisticated brain scans on anyone seeking to be a legislator. If, when you say the words “There oughta be a law!” pleasure centers in their brain light up, they’re disqualified from running for office. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/49 "2010-02-25T14:05:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > She may not have had the money. She had enough money to hire somebody to beat her. > [@](#): > > She may have simply been unable to reach one; there’s only 6 in the state. In seven months? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > As these anti-abortion laws always do, this law has one purpose only; to punish women. This is as dumb as it was the last seventeen thousand times you said it. Since you cannot produce a cite for the intentions of the legislators who originated this bill, I suggest you preface this with “the following is my opinion, and is stupid, ill-informed, and based on nothing”. > [@](#): > > Throwing some poor woman who miscarries into prison - possibly for life - won’t do anything else. This law does not apply to those who miscarry, as has been cited twice. And your assertion that it would carry a possible life sentence is also stupid and wrong. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/50 "2010-02-25T14:35:18Z")
Right now any death unattended by a doctor has to be reported and investigate. The death of a fetus granted personhood would qualify. Technically, every menstrual period of a sexually active woman would have to be investigated for a fertilized cell. I bet every one knows a woman who had a hard time when ordering coffee or wine when pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/51 "2010-02-25T14:38:29Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > But this law doesn’t have a word in it about trimesters or anything else. Well, I already said I thought it was a stupid, unconstitutional law for that reason. But you were the one who made it personal about her, which is why I brought up her particular circumstances. > [@](#): > > If she’d been in her third week and had someone beat her to try to cause a miscarriage, she could be charged and face the potential of life in prison. This, along with the weasel language regarding “recklessness” is why this bill is so very onerous. Where are you getting the “life in prison” part? And we’ve already had posts about the legal definition of “reckless”. Go back and read what it means. As for the parental consent thing, Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of that. Sorry, but democracy can be a bitch some times. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/52 "2010-02-25T14:46:39Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > “Reckless” has a precise legal definintion which does not match what intraweb pundits (and several in this thread) have decided it means, making this a non-story. It’s the same term used in almost every avenue of criminal law, including murder, criminal damage, and many others, and is totally applicable to any act requiring intention. > > In short: don’t read legislative summaries in the press, think you know what the common usage of a word is, apply that as a legal definition to a statute you haven’t even read, and pass a moral judgement and condemn lawmakers. Because the likelihood is that that random word that press agency X plucked out of a document means something else both (a) in context and (b) in a legal sense as opposed to the way you use it in the supermarket. I’ve had to take the internet’s word on what “reckless” means because that’s all I have access to. I’ve attempted to look into Utah Codes for a day now and failed. They’ve put their statutes on this buggy piece of Java crap and my browser fails every time I try searching through the thing. And thanks for assuming I’ve passed any moral judgement. Go back and read the OP without your blinders on. I found some articles, summarized them, and asked for others’ opinions on them. It’s about as objective as I could make it. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/53 "2010-02-25T15:05:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course. Because right now, when anyone dies, there’s an investigation to see if anyone thought bad thoughts about the deceased, and if anyone did, they are charged with manslaughter. When someone is murdered, the first people investigated are those with a motive. Unwanted pregnancy would be the first motive investigated for “killing” the fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/54 "2010-02-25T15:13:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As for the parental consent thing, Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of that. Sorry, but democracy can be a bitch some times. Yeah, if some girl is raped and impregnated by her father, she should be forced to beg her rapist for an abortion, right? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/55 "2010-02-25T15:18:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As for the parental consent thing, Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of that. Sorry, but democracy can be a bitch some times. And some would extend it to [“girls”](http://www.cwalac.org/article_786.shtml) up to age 25! ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/56 "2010-02-25T15:19:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As for the parental consent thing, Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of that. Sorry, but democracy can be a bitch some times. I was under the impression that where the constitutionally protected rights of minors are at issue, we needed a little more than the preferences of the mob. Parental consent laws are (unfortunately) here to stay, but that’s a foolish reason to justify them. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/57 "2010-02-25T15:22:00Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > And some would extend it to [“girls”](http://www.cwalac.org/article_786.shtml) up to age 25! Representative Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Florida): > [@](#): > > It will protect minors from exploitation from the abortion industry Good God that is scary. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/58 "2010-02-25T15:26:09Z")
Where are the laws protecting minors from exploitation by the _adoption_ industry? ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/59 "2010-02-25T16:10:51Z")
> [@Nicest\_of\_the\_Damned](#): > > Granted there probably won’t be lots of people who will make their choice based only on this law but if it were me I’d certainly take it into consideration. Especially if it was expected to be a high risk pregnancy. In case you might accidentally _intentionally grossly deviate_ from the standard of care that a _normal person_ would receive? If that’s your thought process, you probably shouldn’t have kids anyway. Of course, anyone morally bankrupt enough to have an unnecessary abortion shouldn’t be raising people anyhow. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Right now any death unattended by a doctor has to be reported and investigate. The death of a fetus granted personhood would qualify. Where are you getting this “unattended deaths have to be investigated”? I’ve never heard that, and it doesn’t match up with my experience. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Technically, every menstrual period of a sexually active woman would have to be investigated for a fertilized cell. Can you tell me _any_ law that works like that? Where law enforcement investigates every situation where a crime could maybe possibly might have occurred? Is every date investigated for rape? Every conversation investigated for harassment? Every bruise investigated for assault? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/60 "2010-02-25T16:29:14Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I was under the impression that where the constitutionally protected rights of minors are at issue, we needed a little more than the preferences of the mob. > > Parental consent laws are (unfortunately) here to stay, but that’s a foolish reason to justify them. Well, all constitutional rights are ultimately determined by “the mob”-- lso known as the majority (when we agree with them). 😉 Personally, I’m undecided as to the wisdom of such laws. If a 12 year old girl gets an abortion, I can see where the parents might want to know. At 17, it might be different, but we have to draw the line somewhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298.md?page=4)