# Utah law to criminalize miscarriages **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298 "2010-02-24T19:39:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/101 "2010-02-26T05:37:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yeah, those Republicans sure are evil when they talk about death panels. > > Fortunately, no Democrats would ever shade the truth or lie in support of their pet ideas. Thank you for acknowledging that no Democrats would shade the truth or lie in support of their pet ideas. That makes them different than Republicans. šŸ˜ƒ Yes, I will save this admission and quote it in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/102 "2010-02-26T05:41:21Z")
ā€œIt shouldnā€™t take that much thought to arrive at the conclusion that if parental consent is the problem, then the parental consent law should be changed (or at least complained about)ā€ I suspect the argument would more be that neither law should be in place but that the presence of one further compounds the effect of the other. Ie criminalising a 17 year old doing this isnt really the answer and that making it so they cant get an abortion without parental consent only makes the scenario more likely. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/103 "2010-02-26T05:45:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > One important difference is, in this case one side IS driven by malice. This is like looking at a segregation-era law passed enforcing ā€œseparate but equalā€, and assuming it will be enforced in a way prejudiced against blacks - of course it will. I overlooked this on the first go around. I find it silly that you think _weā€™re_ the ones with backward, segregation-era prejudiced views. Youā€™re the one that wants to pretend that a living organism with its own DNA, own brain, own skin, own independent circulatory system, own response to stimuli, etc, isnā€™t a human being. Youā€™re the one using arguments that sound like slave owners - ā€œItā€™s my property, I can do as I please with it! Theyā€™re barely even human anyway!ā€ And youā€™re completely right. One side IS driven by malice- the side that wants to abuse a necessary medical operation to shirk responsibility for their actions by killing someone simply because theyā€™ve never laid eyes on the person. There are about a million insults Iā€™d like to throw your way, but this is still in GD, so Iā€™ll just call you a ā€œblob of fleshā€ instead. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/104 "2010-02-26T05:50:52Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I overlooked this on the first go around. I find it silly that you think _weā€™re_ the ones with backward, segregation-era prejudiced views. Youā€™re the one that wants to pretend that a living organism with its own DNA, own brain, own skin, own independent circulatory system, own response to stimuli, etc, isnā€™t a human being. You mean like, say, a frog? A bug? Do you consider those human too? > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Youā€™re the one using arguments that sound like slave owners - ā€œItā€™s my property, I can do as I please with it! Theyā€™re barely even human anyway!ā€ And they were evil people, because they were wrong. Blatantly so. Iā€™m not. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/105 "2010-02-26T07:14:48Z")
Well, in response, some people see it differently. Many people in the world do not consider an eight week old fetus to be a human being full of rights. They consider it a private issue of the motherā€™s health and none of the governmentā€™s business at all. They do not think that the bodies of women are subject to the regulation of the government. ---
**Author:** ![GreatStuffMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f04885/32.png) [@GreatStuffMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreatStuffMan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/106 "2010-02-26T12:02:10Z")
This is so utterly absurd. But then again, itā€™s Utah. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/107 "2010-02-26T13:36:45Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > As for parental consent; if parents have to right to prevent their daughter from getting an abortion do they also have the right to force her to get an abortion against her will? How is forcing a girl to bear a child against her will any different than forcing her to get an abortion against her will? Parents certainly coerce their daughters into abortions all the time, quite simply, by stating that the ā€œchoiceā€ is to have an abortion or to get out of their house. Forcing a girl to bear a child against her will is equally coercive and an equal deprivation of liberty and bodily autonomy, but who cares, thereā€™s a baaaaybeeeeee at stake. :rolleyes: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Jeez, guys, we donā€™t know anything about this girl, other than her age and that she was 7 months pregnant. Why make these crazy assumptions about her? So leave her aside, even though the legislature of Utah just acted hastily to kludge together an overly broad piece of law specifically in reaction to her. The question which stands is this: who, exactly, is being protected by this law? > [@Shodan](#): > > An induced abortion is not spontaneous, and acts taken against medical advice that result in a miscarriage are specifically excluded from this act. If a specifically _abortive_ procedure or abortifacient medication havenā€™t been used, then the loss of a pregnancy is a spontaneous abortion, or miscarriage. Even if a woman has been intentionally beaten about her pregnant belly. Intention isnā€™t induction. And the language regarding ā€œacts against medical adviceā€ does not indicate that acting against _general_ advice (e.g. donā€™t smoke crack when pregnant, which a woman with no admitted history of substance abuse would likely never be specifically told by her doctor) is exempted, or if it only applies in scenarios where a recommended procedure is declined, such as in the tragic (and embarrassing to Utah legal authorities) case of [Melissa Rowland](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040426/pollitt), which gained national attention several years ago. > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Why is it that none of you are focusing on the real problem? Youā€™re argument is that she canā€™t get a legal abortion by herself, so she should be able to pay someone to beat it out of her. No, the argument is that this law is a backdoor effort to enable some legal recognition of ā€œrightsā€ of fetuses that are not compatible with Roe v. Wade. Because at the end of the day, hereā€™s where the law breaks down. If I want to have someone to beat me, legally, I can. Practitioners of BDSM do it every day. I could have a very skilled person lash me with a bullwhip until Iā€™m a bleeding heap on the floor if I wanted to. And if I were 20 weeks pregnant and wanted to have an abortion, granted that I have the money and the access, I could. But this law has said that if I were 20 weeks pregnant and had someone to beat me (or feed me an abortifacient herbal concoction or throw me down a flight of stairs) and a miscarriage results, Iā€™ve now committed homicide. And it doesnā€™t matter if Iā€™ve done it because I canā€™t afford an abortion, or the law wonā€™t let me get one because Iā€™m only 17, or because my domestic partner/parents/community wonā€™t let me get one, or because Iā€™m afraid of medical procedures. If itā€™s legal for me to be savagely beaten when Iā€™m not pregnant, and it would be legal for me to get an abortion at the point of pregnancy where I am, then clearly the point of telling me that I canā€™t be beaten to end my pregnancy, if thatā€™s the stupid path I choose, is **not** to protect **me**. > [@](#): > > It shouldnā€™t take that much thought to arrive at the conclusion that if parental consent is the problem, then the parental consent law should be changed (or at least complained about). If monetary or geographic access to abortion is the problem, then you need to address _that_ problem. But you canā€™t possibly argue that allowing a woman to get an 7-month-along person beaten out of her is an OK thing, simply because the other wrongs exist! If itā€™s OK or not isnā€™t the point. And this law makes it illegal to do anything non-medical to end an abortion at any point in the pregnancy. Forget 7 months. Itā€™s illegal at 7 _hours_. > [@](#): > > In what justice system would every incident be investigated, regardless of if there was any hint of wrongdoing? How is that sensible in the least? None. Itā€™s a red herring. The point is, any woman who undergoes a trauma and subsequently miscarries could be suspected, investigated and arrested, whether sheā€™s charged or not ā€“ like the Iowa woman who was arrested after falling down the stairs because the nurse lied about the dates on the pregnancy. She was ultimately not charged, but she spent two days in jail while authorities decided if falling down a flight of stairs and being ambivalent about a pregnancy were crimes. And as I mentioned above, the wording of the law is sufficiently vague that this could be used to jail women whose addiction issues cause them to lose a pregnancy. > [@outlierrn](#): > > Now personally, Iā€™d want to go over this new law with a fine tooth comb to cull out anything that could be used by the anti abortion crowd to promote their agenda because Iā€™m pro-choice and I think the way to prevent abortion is to prevent the need. The entire law is nothing but a promotion of the agenda of the anti-abortion crowd. Anything that can be used to establish some rights of a fetus is the kind of entry that they specifically look for and use in the hopes of creating grounds for a legal challenge to Roe v. Wade. This isnā€™t just patently obvious, this is right out of the playbook of every anti-abortion organization in the country. Thatā€™s why they lobby their allied legislators to come up with things like this, and the proposed law in South Carolina to prohibit any insurer doing business in the state from covering elective abortions, and the various and sundry [ā€œpersonhoodā€ amendments](http://www.personhoodusa.com/) that they have tried to pass in numerous states and are trying to get on the ballots everywhere. (Because just one is enough to end up back in front of the SCOTUS. And right now, thereā€™s no guarantee that if they get that, they wonā€™t win.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/108 "2010-02-26T14:11:37Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Thank you for acknowledging that no Democrats would shade the truth or lie in support of their pet ideas. That makes them different than Republicans. šŸ˜ƒ Yes, I will save this admission and quote it in the future. If you offer up this quote for the purpose of suggesting its literal truth, without revealing the context from which it cameā€¦ ā€¦ well, youā€™d be proving my actual point quite nicely, wouldnā€™t you? šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/109 "2010-02-26T14:36:50Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Either that, or the well-known stance that that ā€œblob of cellsā€ is a person just like you are. But hey, donā€™t let the other sideā€™s stated stance get in the way of you dictating to them what they believe. People believe a lot of things that are incorrect. As I stated earlier, my views on abortion wouldnā€™t fundamentally change if I did believe a fetus was a person. But I donā€™t. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/110 "2010-02-26T14:40:39Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Fair or not the clock is ticking on every pregnant woman, and in my opinion by 7 months all of her termination options have run out. Iā€™d be willing to consider a ban on third trimester abortions (with obvious exceptions for motherā€™s health/fetal survivability) in exchange for fully funded compulsory sex education in schools, free contraception, a requirement for licensed pharmacists to fill prescriptions (and an end to bloody stupid laws granting people the right to refuse legitimate requests from their pharmacist employers and avoid discipline based on ā€˜conscienceā€™) and federally funded abortions available in the first two trimesters. And maybe some other stuff I canā€™t think of right now. I donā€™t want a pony, though. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/111 "2010-02-26T15:02:28Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Iā€™d be willing to consider a ban on third trimester abortions (with obvious exceptions for motherā€™s health/fetal survivability) in exchange for fully funded compulsory sex education in schools, free contraception, a requirement for licensed pharmacists to fill prescriptions (and an end to bloody stupid laws granting people the right to refuse legitimate requests from their pharmacist employers and avoid discipline based on ā€˜conscienceā€™) and federally funded abortions available in the first two trimesters. And maybe some other stuff I canā€™t think of right now. I donā€™t want a pony, though. So. are you saying that without those things, you favor legalized, elective abortions at 7 months? 8 months? 9 months? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/112 "2010-02-26T15:05:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So. are you saying that without those things, you favor legalized, elective abortions at 7 months? 8 months? 9 months? I wouldnā€™t say I would favor them as such. But legally allowing them, probably. Itā€™s something I go back and forth on. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/113 "2010-02-26T17:43:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you offer up this quote for the purpose of suggesting its literal truth, without revealing the context from which it cameā€¦ > > ā€¦ well, youā€™d be proving my actual point quite nicely, wouldnā€™t you? šŸ™‚ Yes, and glad that you are confirming your statement and not backing away from it! ā€œNo Democrats would shade the truth or lie in support of their pet ideas.ā€ Gotta make that my sig line as soon as I figure out how. With proper attribution, of course. Wouldnā€™t want to give a misimpression. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/114 "2010-02-26T17:46:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yeah, those Republicans sure are evil when they talk about death panels. > > Fortunately, no Democrats would ever shade the truth or lie in support of their pet ideas. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Thank you for acknowledging that no Democrats would shade the truth or lie in support of their pet ideas. That makes them different than Republicans. šŸ˜ƒ Yes, I will save this admission and quote it in the future. > [@Bricker](#): > > If you offer up this quote for the purpose of suggesting its literal truth, without revealing the context from which it cameā€¦ > > ā€¦ well, youā€™d be proving my actual point quite nicely, wouldnā€™t you? šŸ™‚ Uhh, that would be your point that Democrats donā€™t shade the truth or lie in support of their pet ideas, right? šŸ˜› šŸ˜ƒ Donā€™t worry, **Bricker** , Iā€™m just messinā€™ with ya. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/115 "2010-02-26T18:00:56Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Iā€™d be willing to consider a ban on third trimester abortions (with obvious exceptions for motherā€™s health/fetal survivability) in exchange for fully funded compulsory sex education in schools, free contraception, a requirement for licensed pharmacists to fill prescriptions (and an end to bloody stupid laws granting people the right to refuse legitimate requests from their pharmacist employers and avoid discipline based on ā€˜conscienceā€™) and federally funded abortions available in the first two trimesters. And maybe some other stuff I canā€™t think of right now. I donā€™t want a pony, though. How about the right to demand that the fetus be taken either by induced labor or by C-section, at no risk of liability to the pregnant woman, and treated as though it had been given up in accordance with infant safe haven laws? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/116 "2010-02-26T18:13:00Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > How about the right to demand that the fetus be taken either by induced labor or by C-section, at no risk of liability to the pregnant woman, and treated as though it had been given up in accordance with infant safe haven laws? Thatā€™s one I have gone both ways on. If I was coming at this from a straight property rights angle, then I would have to say yes. But Iā€™m not, so I just am not sure on it. There also is the factor of risk to the pregnant woman that needs to be included in it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/117 "2010-02-26T18:57:43Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Every single time I post that if the fetus is granetd all rights to person hood this is exactly what will happen, people say ā€œprove it.ā€ If the fetus is a person and the woman miscarriages, maybe she took an asprin or a sip of coffee or ā€œhad bad thoughtsā€ about the baby. > > Every unattended death of a person is investigated. If the fetus is a person, any miscarriage would have to be investigated. People want you to prove things because you border on hysteria, treat true crime novels as scientific studies, and have worse cites than Jack Chick. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/118 "2010-02-26T20:44:52Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Iā€™d be willing to consider a ban on third trimester abortions (with obvious exceptions for motherā€™s health/fetal survivability) in exchange for fully funded compulsory sex education in schools, free contraception, a requirement for licensed pharmacists to fill prescriptions (and an end to bloody stupid laws granting people the right to refuse legitimate requests from their pharmacist employers and avoid discipline based on ā€˜conscienceā€™) and federally funded abortions available in the first two trimesters. And maybe some other stuff I canā€™t think of right now. I donā€™t want a pony, though. Sounds good to me > [@John\_Mace](#): > > So. are you saying that without those things, you favor legalized, elective abortions at 7 months? 8 months? 9 months? Iā€™ve taken care of babies born at 7 and 8 months gestational age, so itā€™s not > [@villa](#): > > something I go back and forth on. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/119 "2010-02-26T23:05:26Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Fair or not the clock is ticking on every pregnant woman, and in my opinion by 7 months all of her termination options have run out. Thatā€™s probably a pretty good description of how she felt when she paid someone to beat her up so badly sheā€™d miscarry. ---
**Author:** ![vandal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/858c86/32.png) [@vandal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vandal)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298/120 "2010-02-27T01:36:42Z")
Wow, if I was a woman living in Utah, Iā€™d be scared shitless of getting pregnant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-law-to-criminalize-miscarriages/530298.md?page=7)