# Utah poised to ban sex education **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 8, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141 "2012-03-08T12:39:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/21 "2012-03-08T15:21:56Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > The Salt Lake Tribute has a great [take on this](http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/53668404-82/bagley-cartoon-facebook-lake.html.csp). Ah, yes. Pat Bagley is an underappreciated national treasure. If you can, get his books of editorial cartoons. Or browse his website. I got most of my education of LDS culture from Bagley’'s and Calvin Grondahl’s editorial cartoons. And from Orson Scott Card’s _Saintspeak Dictionary_. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/22 "2012-03-08T15:35:49Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Why isn’t it called ‘Relationship Education’? > > ‘Sex education’ sounds as unbalanced as some other bogus phrase, maybe like ‘socialized medicine’. Makes more sense, because young people can get in all sorts of romantic trauma ( \<3 ) that doesn’t directly involve inserting tab A into slot B but is still serious stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/23 "2012-03-08T15:41:08Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Why should it be the job of the parents? It’s basic biology. If girls are old enough to get their periods, and boys are old enough to have wet dreams, then they’re old enough to know what’s going on with their bodies and what the implications are for the future. It should be part of every biology class from middle school onward. [Here is a link](http://www.teachthefacts.org/Grade8_Field_Test_Revised.pdf) to the Moontgomery County, Maryland, Grade 8 Health Education Curriculum. The “Family Life and Human Sexuality” section says: > [@](#): > > - Define terms related to human sexuality > - Define stereotyping and discuss generalizations regarding sexual identity > - Examine factors that influence stereotyping and generalizations regarding sexual identity > - Explore how cultural and family values affect relationships and marriage > - Explore the effect of family stress and divorce on the family and society > - Describe the process of pregnancy and birth, recognizing the importance of > prenatal care for the mother and fetus > - Discuss the effects of hormonal changes on the body and on behavior throughout the life cycle > - Analyze the influence of peer pressure and other factors on an individual’s decisions regarding sexual behavior > - Analyze consequences of sexual activity > - Examine myths and misconceptions about human sexuality > - Discuss the social, emotional, and economic impact of teenage parenting > - Discuss how family values, culture, religious views, and other factors influence > family planning > - Identify abstinence from sexual intercourse as the most effective means of > pregnancy prevention > - Identify and describe methods of pregnancy prevention Some of those (“Describe the process of pregnancy and birth”) are fairly described as biology. I would dispute that “Discuss the social, emotional, and economic impact of teenage parenting,” is a biology subject. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/24 "2012-03-08T15:47:44Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > If, in an ideal world, parents should be teaching their kids about sex, why do we not hear, “In an ideal world, parents should be teaching their kids calculus!”? > > The answer to both is that most parents are unwilling and unqualified to teach either. “I want to be the one to teach my kid about sex!” most often means, “…but I’m not going to bring it up until she’s 14, if then!” No. The answer is that calculus is uncontroversial. No one disputes that the first derivative of y=x[sup]3[/sup]+x[sup]2[/sup]+1 is y=3x[sup]2[/sup]+2x. But “Sex outside of marriage is wrong,” and “Exploring your sexuality as a teen with different partners is natural,” are both concepts that different people might defend as accurate. Parents may not wish to have their values and morals in the area of sexual behavior contradicted by anything the public school would teach. No one, so far as I’m aware, has any unique or differing values and morals associated with contour integration. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/25 "2012-03-08T16:00:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > The answer is that calculus is uncontroversial. No one disputes that the first derivative of y=x[sup]3[/sup]+x[sup]2[/sup]+1 is y=3x[sup]2[/sup]+2x. > > But “Sex outside of marriage is wrong,” and “Exploring your sexuality as a teen with different partners is natural,” are both concepts that different people might defend as accurate. Parents may not wish to have their values and morals in the area of sexual behavior contradicted by anything the public school would teach. No one, so far as I’m aware, has any unique or differing values and morals associated with contour integration. My kids sex Ed is carefully structured to avoid value judgements. Teenage pregnancy is discussed in terms of the economic impact the teens will experience should they become parents while still in high school. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/26 "2012-03-08T16:03:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > The answer is that calculus is uncontroversial. No one disputes that the first derivative of y=x[sup]3[/sup]+x[sup]2[/sup]+1 is y=3x[sup]2[/sup]+2x. I think you misread me. Probably my fault, let me try again: The appropriate answer to a person saying, “Parents should teach their kids about sex,” is “No, that wouldn’t be good, because parents are largely ignorant about sex.” In the same way, the appropriate answer to a person saying, “Parents should teach their kids calculus,” is, “No, that wouldn’t be good, because parents are largely ignorant about calculus.” Besides, there’s nothing controversial about luteal phases, menstruation cycles or how babies are conceived, either. This proposal isn’t to limit sex education to “just the facts, ma’am,” but teachers are given a global gag order instead. These people want a biology teacher to teach about the digestive system, the skeletal system and the nervous system, and then completely ignore the reproductive system so that people who don’t know anything about it can “teach it at home”. Of course I understand WHY, I’m just saying it’s stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/27 "2012-03-08T16:45:58Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I think you misread me. Probably my fault, let me try again: The appropriate answer to a person saying, “Parents should teach their kids about sex,” is “No, that wouldn’t be good, because parents are largely ignorant about sex.” In the same way, the appropriate answer to a person saying, “Parents should teach their kids calculus,” is, “No, that wouldn’t be good, because parents are largely ignorant about calculus.” > > Besides, there’s nothing controversial about luteal phases, menstruation cycles or how babies are conceived, either. This proposal isn’t to limit sex education to “just the facts, ma’am,” but teachers are given a global gag order instead. These people want a biology teacher to teach about the digestive system, the skeletal system and the nervous system, and then completely ignore the reproductive system so that people who don’t know anything about it can “teach it at home”. > > Of course I understand WHY, I’m just saying it’s stupid. Agreed, I think. The problem is that sex, as a domain, touches both biology and morality. The physical effects of a penis ejaculating in a vagina are uncontroversial; the moral and spiritual effects, not so much. So parents who are concerned about moral education object to certain teachings about sex, and even efforts to limit things to “just the facts” raises concerns because of the nexus between those facts and other, touchier subjects. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/28 "2012-03-08T17:00:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Agreed, I think. The problem is that sex, as a domain, touches both biology and morality. The physical effects of a penis ejaculating in a vagina are uncontroversial; the moral and spiritual effects, not so much. So parents who are concerned about moral education object to certain teachings about sex, and even efforts to limit things to “just the facts” raises concerns because of the nexus between those facts and other, touchier subjects. Couldn’t the same be said of teaching The Civil War? That to teach just the facts brings up moral education (slavery = bad) because the one is so intimately linked with the other? I agree it’s incredibly difficult to divorce the two, and I do think teachers should take a cautious “some people” approach to treading those waters. “Some people believe that sex is so special it should be saved for after marriage and some people believe it’s okay to have sex with someone you’re not married to. Talking to your parents about that is the best way to learn what your family, community and maybe church has to say about that.” I just don’t think completely silencing the subject is the answer to the problem of it being a really difficult subject to teach. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/29 "2012-03-08T17:02:37Z")
Heh. “Touchier.” ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/30 "2012-03-08T17:09:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [Here is a link](http://www.teachthefacts.org/Grade8_Field_Test_Revised.pdf) to the Moontgomery County, Maryland, Grade 8 Health Education Curriculum. The “Family Life and Human Sexuality” section says: > Some of those (“Describe the process of pregnancy and birth”) are fairly described as biology. > > I would dispute that “Discuss the social, emotional, and economic impact of teenage parenting,” is a biology subject. I would say the social, emotional & economic impact of teen parenting is either a social studies, health or economic subject. I would not be opposed to any of the three issues being raised in those classes, although, as I said, if a public school is going to discuss issues of morality, I would want to hear from a broad sampling of the public. I’m not entirely opposed to raising those three subjects in biology class, if the teachers think it would be more productive to provide a cross-curriculum approach. What I am opposed to is a law preventing any discussion of the biology of sex, including the basics of sexual intercourse, sexual stimulation, and pregnancy and the prevention thereof. It’s one thing to say you want to teach the importance of certain social behaviors. It’s another thing entirely to forbid discussion of certain topics. Here, by the by, is the bill in in question: > **[Utah Legislature HB0363](https://le.utah.gov/~2012/bills/hbillenr/hb0363.htm)** ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/31 "2012-03-08T17:10:17Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Couldn’t the same be said of teaching The Civil War? That to teach just the facts brings up moral education (slavery = bad) because the one is so intimately linked with the other? I suppose, except the proposition that slavery is bad is itself relatively uncontroversial. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/32 "2012-03-08T17:13:12Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > But in a day and age when an alarming number of people [don’t know women have three holes in their nether regions](https://www.google.com/search?q=women+don%27t+know+they+have+three+holes&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&q=don%27t+know+women+have+three+holes&oq=don%27t+know+women+have+three+holes&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=6078l8899l0l9203l18l17l1l0l0l11l275l2467l0.15.2l18l0&gs_l=serp.3...6078l8899l0l9203l18l17l1l0l0l11l275l2467l0j15j2l18l0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=bfbad756b3e0f08f&biw=1252&bih=548), leaving biology education to the laypeople is stupid and dangerous. One hole, plus two elaborate and elongated indentations. It’s basic topology, people! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/33 "2012-03-08T17:14:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I suppose, except the proposition that slavery is bad is itself relatively uncontroversial. The Bible says otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/34 "2012-03-08T17:17:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I suppose, except the proposition that slavery is bad is itself relatively uncontroversial. Yer from \*Northern \*Virginia, aintcha? Bless yer heart. (It was still pretty controversial among some of my Georgian extended family not 10 years ago when I was still talking to them.) **Spiff** , I think I love you. Yes, you are absolutely correct. There is only one hole through the human body, until people add their own. Everything else is cul-de-sacs. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/35 "2012-03-08T18:24:24Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > What’s this about beehives? Well, if you stick your dick in an actual beehive, I think THAT could count as birth control. At least for a while. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/36 "2012-03-08T18:34:24Z")
And of course, when more kids start having babies due to no sex education, Utah will double down and place even more restrictive sex ed limitations in order to curb the epidemic :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/37 "2012-03-09T10:03:27Z")
Are you kidding? Utah loves babies. The entire state is [del]indoctrinated[/del] taught that large families are the only way to get into heaven. Of course they want to get rid of all sex education, they want any knowledge that it’s possible to NOT have babies to be suppressed. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/38 "2012-03-09T15:58:59Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > I dunno - silly me, wanting to teach my own kid stuff, hoping that when she has questions, she comes to me, since I just \*might \*have answers for her… Schools aren’t the only places where you learn. One thing about sexuality education is that your kid WILL get it from multiple sources. Only you are going to be a complete and consistent communicator of your values. And some sources are better and worse than others. Some are great for certain topics. I.e. I wouldn’t have wanted to have heard about anal sex from my mom, but learning about it from friends for the first time, not a horrible source. My kids get that information in church :eek:, but I’m certain they don’t get it in the school curriculum, and while my friends weren’t the worst source, there are better. . On the other hand, depending on your friends for accurate contraception information, not great. Parents may, or may not be, good sources for the relationship part of the deal…but I hope my kids primary source for that part of it is not television. I don’t trust the schools to be my kids only source of sexuality information, but I don’t trust the parents of my kids potential partners to be accurate and complete sources either. Exposing my kids, and their friends to a number of sources, and communicating our values, seems like the best for them developing a healthy sexuality. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/39 "2012-03-09T16:00:28Z")
Out of curiosity, I looked up the statistics. Utah’s Vital Statistics Births and Deaths [2010](http://health.utah.gov/vitalrecords/pub_vs/ia10/10bx_10122011.pdf) Of the 52,164 live births in Utah in 2010, 9,891 were to unwed mothers (19% of the total number of births), and of which 2,270 were to teenagers (up through age 19), 4.25% of the total. If you include women through the age of 24, the total number is 5,851 or 11.2% of the total number of births. While this is below the national average, these are still not insignificant numbers. IIRC, the percentage of those who receive the “abstinence only” education and remain virgins until marriage isn’t terribly great. ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141/40 "2012-03-09T19:38:35Z")
“Basic biology”??? But that sounds like…like…SCIENCE! Nooooooooo! > [@PrettyVacant](#): > > ‘This goes there, you leave it in too long you get a baby. Any questions? Good, lesson over’. This is satire, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-poised-to-ban-sex-education/615141.md?page=3)