# Utah teachers allowed to carry concealed guns in classrooms - Is this a good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326 "2003-09-13T03:11:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/21 "2003-09-13T13:21:39Z")
I’m still waiting for some proof that this is a law that says, “Teachers: go out and buy a weapon to use at school!” instead of a law that’s addressing where a person who has a concealed carry permit may carry the weapon. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/22 "2003-09-13T13:29:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Yep. You make every single situation that you walk into potentially deadly. The lives of everyone around you is hostage to your stability and mental state. Good lord. Every person you meet physically larger than you could snap and beat you severely. You are hostage to their stability and mental state. Unless you’re armed, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/23 "2003-09-13T14:19:37Z")
The problem here is the probable scability of an incident. When I was in highschool several ‘strange’ things happenned in my school or other schools. Things that in the end turned out alright, most importantly, with no one dead. In one incident (which I was present at to witness) a student wanted to go to the bathroom. The teacher refused to let him (he had some nutty system where only one person was allowed to go no sooner than 15 minutes apart). Well, the student would have none of it and got up to go. The teacher also got up to bar the door. The student picked him up and threw him against some lockers. Now, I knew the student. He just wanted to get to the bathroom, he didn’t want to hurt the teacher, however his decision to shove him away wasn’t a brilliant one. I could see the fear in the teacher’s eyes. I didn’t see much danger coming form the student, after he shoved the teacher he started to go towards the bathroom. But I think the teacher so it a different way. This is all anecdotal I know, but I’m sure we’ve all been involved, or seen altercations between students and faculty, or between two students. I think the ONLY role a gun would play in such instances is to potentially get someone killed. In the story above the kid ended up in toruble with the law, and the teacher went to the hospital for a cracked bone (IIRC). If there had been a guin involved we could have ended up with a dead student (either the instigator, or some inoccent bystander). This is a very bad idea, and I cnanot believe that parents in utah would be for this. I certainly would raise hell over this if I had a child going to such a school. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/24 "2003-09-13T15:22:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > \*\*I said “no round chambered” not “unloaded.” You can have a magazine loaded without chambering a round. It simply means that you have to cycle the action to load a round and prepare the weapon to fire. Might seem like a small deal, but if someone lunges for a handgun in a holster, it can make a difference in stopping them from shooting the owner with it… \*\* Or it could mean the difference between someone getting a round off in time or getting shot or stabbed while trying to pull the slide back. Or they could just use a revolver with the hammer down on the empty chamber so all they have to do is pull the trigger to shoot it. I would never carry a firearm for self-defense that wasn’t chambered, it kind of defeats the purpose and really doesn’t serve to make anyone safer. Let’s check with the experts, do police officers carry sidearms with empty pipes? > [@](#): > > \*\* > But while I think of it, if getting a CCP allows one to carry a handgun onto school grounds (As I think it does for some states, and as it seems Utah just decided to allow), then it seems like teachers would be able to bring one along, if they have a permit. \*\* In Texas an employer can ban an employee from carrying a firearm to work. So even if the law says it is ok the employer can say no. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I also think that if a teacher even hints about the idea of their handgun as, say, a suggestion for the students to stay behaved, then that teacher should be out of there. \*\* In Texas that would be a crime. You can’t brandish or otherwise use your firearm to intimidate other people in the normal course of your day. > [@](#): > > \*\* > As it is, having teachers carry would have minimal impact on security. Major school shootings are very rare, and many have been in circumstances where having armed teachers wouldn’t have helped any. \*\* I agree. Marc ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/25 "2003-09-13T15:24:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*I’m still waiting for some proof that this is a law that says, “Teachers: go out and buy a weapon to use at school!” instead of a law that’s addressing where a person who has a concealed carry permit may carry the weapon. \*\* I guess I don’t quite understand your point Monty. My question related to the specific issue of teachers in Utah potentially carrying concealed guns onto school grounds (pre-school ad up)which the concealed carry law passed in Utah now allows them to do, and why this specific aspect of the Utah concealed carry law may not be a particularly wise thing to allow for as public policy. Why does a law have to “command” concealed carry in schools vs “allow” it before it can be considered a potentially dangerous law? I’m not really grasping your distinction in this context relative to the question at hand regarding the real world potential dangers of teachers packing concealed guns. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/26 "2003-09-13T15:24:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > \*\*Yep. You make every single situation that you walk into potentially deadly. The lives of everyone around you is hostage to your stability and mental state. Now your mental state is probably fine. But why should the people around be forced to trust in that all of the time? > > What gives you the right to bring deadly force into the lives of others without their permission? without even their knowledge? > > Of all of the people you know, how many would you trust to handle a gun in your presense? Half of them? less? How do I know that you are one of the trustworthy? Should I just assume that if you find _yourself_ trustworthy enough to play with deadly force in my presense that I should to? > > If you really need to have the gun for your safety, then wear it openly, so that everyone else can know that you are not to be messed with. Be honest about your willingness to make every situation that you experience a potentially deadly one. \*\* What’s life like living in fear of the bogeyman, **tejota**? How do you walk around knowing what fear lurks in the hearts of men? It must be a burden knowing that all of us psychos are just lying in wait to cap you. I carry for the security of my family. No more, no less. As I would be using it in their defense, I would think that I couldn’t be any more trustworthy. So, there you go. Oh, and while open carry is technically legal, the police really don’t care for that too much. Hence, concealed carry. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/27 "2003-09-13T15:27:08Z")
astro: My point is that the discussion in this thread seems to have started out on a completely different subject than the issue considered in the links provided in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/28 "2003-09-13T15:30:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > \*\*Yep. You make every single situation that you walk into potentially deadly. The lives of everyone around you is hostage to your stability and mental state. \*\* The same is true when I walk down the street, drive my car, or carry heavy objects around. I could run head on into a bus load of orphans, I could strangle someone because I’m having a bad day, or I could stab someone in the eye for looking at me funny. I guess we’re all hostages to everyone’s mental state. > [@](#): > > \*\* > What gives you the right to bring deadly force into the lives of others without their permission? without even their knowledge? \*\* I’m not even sure what this means. Obviously nobody has a right to bring deadly force to the lives of someone else which is why we have laws against aggravated assaults, murders, and other violent activities. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Of all of the people you know, how many would you trust to handle a gun in your presense? Half of them? less? How do I know that you are one of the trustworthy? \*\* Handling a firearm is not at all difficult or complicated as they are very simple machines to operate. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Should I just assume that if you find _yourself_ trustworthy enough to play with deadly force in my presense that I should to? \*\* Why use some inflammatory language like play? Do you really think someone here is advocating irresponsible behavior? > [@](#): > > \*\* > If you really need to have the gun for your safety, then wear it openly, so that everyone else can know that you are not to be messed with. Be honest about your willingness to make every situation that you experience a potentially deadly one. \*\* Most states don’t allow you to openly carry. As for every situation being potentially deadly that is already the case. Marc ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/29 "2003-09-13T16:30:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*astro: My point is that the discussion in this thread seems to have started out on a completely different subject than the issue considered in the links provided in the OP. \*\* Huh?? Of the three links provided the only linked article that does not _directly_ reference the policy implications and debate about teachers carrying guns is the “Teachers get preliminary OK to carry weapons” cite, which more or less simply references that the legislation has been passed. The other two have explicit notes and quotes about the debate over the advisability of this policy relative to teachers carrying guns which is what the OP question is all about. These issues being discussed in these articles are directly on point with the debate referenced by the OP. Part of “Guns at School” editorial > [@](#): > > [sub]Guns at school - > Earlier this year, Utah’s shoot-first, ask-questions-later Legislature passed a law giving people with concealed-carry permits a green light to bring guns to schools. This law increases the risk of shootings in schools and should be repealed. The issue is timely because most of the state’s schoolchildren returned to their classrooms this week or last. In addition, a state court last week upheld the University of Utah’s ban on students, faculty and staff bringing guns to campus, even when they hold concealed-carry permits. > > One gun-control group has suggested that the state court’s ruling on the U. ban should apply to public schools as well. However, given the complexity of Utah’s gun laws, that may be wishful thinking. The only way to find out would be to try the issue in court. It is no surprise that the state’s 40 school districts do not appear eager to take up that cause, however. School officials would have to be nuts to pick a fight with pro-gun legislators who control education funding, especially when the next session of the Legislature is scheduled to debate the most far-reaching and expensive education reform plan in decades. > > Still, last session’s Senate Bill 108, which clarified that Utahns with concealed-carry permits are allowed to take guns into schools, preschools and child-care facilities, remains a dangerous law that should be stricken from the books. It should be replaced by a law providing that schools are out of bounds for guns carried by concealed-carry permit holders, just as guns can be prohibited, under existing law, in courtrooms and the secure areas of airports, jails, prisons, police stations and mental-health facilities. [/sub] Part of “Concealed gun bill passes Senate committee” > [@](#): > > [sub] A clash between senators Friday Feb. 7 ended with the Senate Judiciary Committee passing an amended version of Senate Bill 108, which allows concealed carry permit holders to have concealed weapons on public school campuses. > > Sen. Patrice Arent, D-Salt Lake, proposed a substitute bill that would prohibit concealed weapons on school campuses, completely reversing the outcome of the original version of the bill proposed by Sen. Michael Waddoups, R-Salt Lake. After debating the issue and hearing public testimony, the substitute version by Arent failed and an amended version of Waddoups’ bill was approved 4-2. > > “I believe this bill protects children,” Waddoups said. "This bill clarifies the intention of the legislature that all concealed permits are valid anywhere eecept certain noted areas. The bill does not change the ban on concealed firearms in any secure area in which notice of prohibition is posted, secure areas of airports and any courthouse, mental health facility or correctional facility. Sen. Arent said her legislation accomplished the same goal without putting children in danger. “There are certain places where guns just don’t belong,” she said. > > Parents, gun owners and representatives from education organizations and gun associations voiced their opinions about the bill. “I don’t see why airports deserve more protection than schools,” said Marla Kennedy, executive director of the Gun Violence Prevention Center in Utah. Schools are not secured areas, like airports, Waddoups’ supporters said. A gun owner knows that no one else has a concealed weapon at an airport. Many of Waddoups’ supporters said they needed guns to feel safe at schools. [/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/30 "2003-09-13T16:54:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > **Plus, I would be bothered by the fact that carrying a gun would be the most increadably forbidden thing possible for me as a student, and yet my teachers can do it all they want.** Actually, the way it seems to read right now, students would be just as eligible under this law. Granted, you have to be 18 to get get a CCW permit, usually, but it sounds like any student that got one would be able to carry, too. At least, under the law. The school could quite easily make other rules that are more restrictive. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kinthalis \* > **In the story above the kid ended up in toruble with the law, and the teacher went to the hospital for a cracked bone (IIRC). If there had been a guin involved we could have ended up with a dead student (either the instigator, or some inoccent bystander).** Contrary to popular belief, carrying a gun doesn’t make you a raging maniac. After being shoved out of the way, and assuming the student didn’t attack the teacher afterward, like was described, there would be no reason to draw a gun. In fact, to have drawn and used it would most likely be homicide, and anyone who’s actually gone through the required steps to get a CCW permit would know that. I don’t think the scenario would change one bit. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by MGibson_ > \*\*Or it could mean the difference between someone getting a round off in time or getting shot or stabbed while trying to pull the slide back. Or they could just use a revolver with the hammer down on the empty chamber so all they have to do is pull the trigger to shoot it. I would never carry a firearm for self-defense that wasn’t chambered, it kind of defeats the purpose and really doesn’t serve to make anyone safer. Let’s check with the experts, do police officers carry sidearms with empty pipes? \*\* I have heard of it, at least. I remember some story (Anecdotal, I know) of a police officer who had his weapon taken from him, but he protected himself by ejecting the magazine before the criminal pried it away. Then again, the above suggestion was before I read the article ( :smack: ). Since the law is simply allowing CCW-permit-holders to carry in schools, it’s really their call how it’s carried, unless the school has specific policies in place. And yeah, I’m aware that employers can restrict wether a person can carry on the job. Actually, isn’t it that the owners of _any_ private property can decide wether or not people can concealed-carry on their property? I’m not sure about Texas, but I think that’s how it is over here… > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Astro_ > **My question related to the specific issue of teachers in Utah potentially carrying concealed guns onto school grounds (pre-school ad up)which the concealed carry law passed in Utah now allows them to do, and why this specific aspect of the Utah concealed carry law may not be a particularly wise thing to allow for as public policy.** Here in Oregon, if you have a CCW permit, you can legally carry handguns into schools. As I understand it, it has always been this way. And, as far as I am aware, no CCW-held weapon has been used in a crime in Oregon schools. On the other hand, it also did not prevent the school shooting here, either (Note, nobody in the school was carrying, except for the kid who brought in three firearms… No CCW required…). ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/31 "2003-09-13T17:30:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > **Contrary to popular belief, carrying a gun doesn’t make you a raging maniac. After being shoved out of the way, and assuming the student didn’t attack the teacher afterward, like was described, there would be no reason to draw a gun. In fact, to have drawn and used it would most likely be homicide, and anyone who’s actually gone through the required steps to get a CCW permit would know that.** A CCP does not guarantee responsible behavior. Even with policemen and police women who are supposedly trained to the nth degree in weapon safety and judicious use, there are occasionally stories in the news how an off duty officer pulled a weapon and used it in a threatening manner or injured or killed someone in their own domestic or other personal disputes where the use of weapon was completely uncalled for, and was used strictly to intimidate or injure someone they were mad at. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. The vast majority of these instances of police using firearms irresponsibly when angry never make the news. In the late 70’s, while sitting in a perfectly placid freshman college english class at the University of Maryand I had a grad student teacher break down in wracking, heaving, sobbing tears because (she explained the next day) she was pregnant and super hormonal, and was going through some personal turmoil. Would I feel “more safe” if she was packing heat? Umm… _no_. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/32 "2003-09-13T18:35:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astro \* > \*\*A CCP does not guarantee responsible behavior. Even with policemen and police women who are supposedly trained to the nth degree in weapon safety and judicious use, there are occasionally stories in the news how an off duty officer pulled a weapon and used it in a threatening manner or injured or killed someone in their own domestic or other personal disputes where the use of weapon was completely uncalled for, and was used strictly to intimidate or injure someone they were mad at. \*\* These are certainly in the minority. And as described in the story, the teacher was shocked and scared, and it sounded like they froze up. Having a handgun wouldn’t be too likely to change that behavior. And if a teacher did any of the above, there would be dozens of witnesses… That’s a pretty one-way trip to not being able to own any firearm again. > [@](#): > > \*\*In the late 70’s, while sitting in a perfectly placid freshman college english class at the University of Maryand I had a grad student teacher break down in wracking, heaving, sobbing tears because (she explained the next day) she was pregnant and super hormonal, and was going through some personal turmoil. Would I feel “more safe” if she was packing heat? Umm… _no_. \*\* Would it make you feel safer if she were “just” driving a multi-ton piece of steel around town at high speeds? One can do a lot more damage with a car than a handgun, if one wants to (Like the incidents of someone swerving off the road and severely injuring dozens of people, sometimes on purpose). The way the law sounds, it isn’t about adding security to the _school_, but about allowing people to carry defensive tools into schools, if they have a CCW permit. It’s been allowed in other states already, and it hasn’t cause any problems. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/33 "2003-09-13T18:48:33Z")
Well, I met **Airman Doors** once and I wasn’t afraid of him. If he had had a gun, big deal. He doesn’t seem like the type who’d whip it out and start spraying everyone. This, however, seems like a really bad idea. I’d be scared shitless to go to school. I would also hope that the teacher would have to have it on his or her person at all times-is there a risk of someone getting ahold of it? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/34 "2003-09-13T19:10:38Z")
If the state has decided that certain people can carry concealed handguns, then I don’t see anything terribly inconsistent with the idea that they can carry them to various places. To say otherwise would be to reach absurd positions like it is legal to sell sex but not to buy sex (ie legal to be a prositute but not legal to seek one out). While such absurd positions are reached in matters of law, their removal is, I think, a wise move for conceptual consistency. Can they carry concealed handguns into banks? Into restaraunts? On playgrounds? If so then the law seems to be a matter of course and is democratically sound. If not, then there is something interesting happening. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/35 "2003-09-13T19:13:16Z")
I mean, this is basically what the law is saying: “If we’ve decided you can carry a gun on your person, then you can carry a gun on your person.” What exceptions already exist for where people can carry firearms? What motivated them? Do those motivations that are accepted as valid apply to schools? Whether or not some posters think the idea stupid, it seems on the surface to be democratically sound and consistent, which is what we ideally want laws to be. ---
**Author:** ![TonyJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9c0ed/32.png) [@TonyJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonyJ)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/36 "2003-09-13T19:28:09Z")
Let’s consider the utility of having a gun on a teacher in the classroom. First, where is the opportunity for the teacher to use it? School shootings do happen, but I do not believe they are so prevalent that this would make a difference in preventing the events - unless a good number of teachers in every school carried, but with a large number of guns it follows that the likelyhood of accidents and other undesired effects will increase as well. Second, what is the use if such an event occurred? Having a person with a gun sounded like a good idea to me at first - I don’t know, maybe they could shoot the kid before the incident got huge - but even in my limited experience with projectile weapons (read: paintballing/airsoft) I recognize that being able to load, aim, and fire the gun comes second to good target acquisition and fast reflexes. In other words: with frantic kids running around, throwing an armed but untrained individual into the mix is asking for friendly fire. This is the problem I have with the idea. Firearms in these cases are better left with the SWAT, in my opinion… ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/37 "2003-09-13T19:28:22Z")
Take me for instance, guys. I have a concealed carry permit, for combat missions I carry a 9-MM, and if the fit hits the shan, I may have to augment the Security Forces. In addition, I have a security clearance. Yet if I bring my gun onto Federal property, I’ll be detained, and certainly punished. Thems the rules. There are some places where guns are simply not permitted. Schools are one of them, unless you are a law enforcement officer. This is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Lu\_abu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@An\_Lu\_abu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Lu_abu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/38 "2003-09-13T19:41:15Z")
Sounds to me like guns are the problem, so why do they automatically become the solution? Why do these people feel the need to carry a gun, is there really that much violence in US schools? I do not want to get into a debate on the right to bear arms on this issue, I know it is a thorny one in the US. I guess if the anti gun lobby there feel strongly enough they’ll get around to a referendum and alter the second amendment. I feel, perhaps, a little hypocritical on this as a gun owner myself (bolt 22, only used for targets). Under our laws, no one can own a handgun (including 99% of the police force) and we are a hell of a lot safer as a result. Well, personally, if I could legally own a handgun I would. But for the sake of society as a whole it’s better that no-one can. I know that people will say that when you take away legal guns, only the criminals are armed…well not if they can’t get them in the first place, or buy parts or ammo for them! I had a six week security screen to buy my 22, including a background check and an interview with the local Gardaí (cops). Can you say the same for a firearm purchase in Utah? My opinion: no guns in schools, not even for police stationed there. Ideal world. But then, none of us would need guns would we? Regards, ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/39 "2003-09-13T19:47:19Z")
The anti-gun lobby doesn’t have a chance in hell of altering the 2nd Amendment. 'Nuff said about that. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/40 "2003-09-13T20:03:08Z")
I once watched a police training video titled “Surviving edged weapon attacks.” The premise of the video was that an attacker with a knife is far too deadly to try and shoot except in certain circumstances, and it’s actually better to grapple for the knife or try to escape. Most of the examples basically centered on a person with a knife being able to get right on top of a cop and be cutting and stabbing them, long before a cop could get his gun out, point it, and shoot it. They did tests where a person with a knife charged a cop from various distances, and the cop (fully aware he was about to be attacked, with a knife, which is not always the case). In order for the policeman to draw his weapon and get two shots off in the direction of the attacker, the attacker had to be at least twenty feet away. Less than ten feet, and the cop didn’t even get to fire. And that’s when the cop was ready for it. I’m severely sceptical of the utility of arming teachers simply because I don’t see a gun as being terrifically useful in any but a small minority of cases. A student in a classroom with a knife, or simply the physical strength to overcome a teacher, will almost always be able to get to the teacher before the teacher can shoot the student, given the distances and the fact that the teacher will probably not be aware of an impending attack, or will not have his firearm ready to defend himself if one seems possible. Add to that hesitation on the part of a teacher, due to nerves, inexperience in shooting people, and crowds of innocent students, and it seems like a pretty useless idea. On top of that, an armed teacher creates a more adversarial relationship with the students that virtually guarantees that, if Kleybold and Harris actually show up again somewhere, they’ll simply shoot the teachers first, or barricade themselves in with students where there are no teachers. Do we then expect teachers to do what SWAT professionals do? How many armed teachers will simply say “I can’t do this.”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326.md?page=3)