# Utah teachers allowed to carry concealed guns in classrooms - Is this a good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326 "2003-09-13T03:11:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/81 "2003-09-15T01:51:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fionn \* > \*\*Off the top of my head-Barry Loukatis, Andrew Wurst, the Wayne Lo shooting at Simon’s Rock College (if you’ll count that), Luke Woodham, Michael Carneal, Andrew Golden/Mitchell Johnson in Arkansas, Kip Kinkel in Oregon, Columbine, Thomas Solomon (in Georgia, I believe), the junior high kid in the midwest who failed to actually kill anyone, the six-year-old shooter in Flint (if you count that), the kid in the San Diego area. > > So, 12, by that very rough count, and those were all shootings that received a great deal of media attention.\*\* It sounded like the question of “how many” was in regards to the idea of students overwhelmning a teacher and getting a gun from them, not how many shootings there have been. As far as I know, none of these cases qualify for that (With some extreme twisting, you could argue that Kip qualifies, but that’s more than just stretching it…). ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/82 "2003-09-15T04:02:57Z")
I see. Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/83 "2003-09-15T04:19:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*If you are talking about the United States, then I suggest you move to Washington DC. > > It is considered by many to be/feel the “safest” place in all of America.\*\* By whom? people who like getting [murdered](http://www.safestreetsdc.com/subpages/murdercap.html)? > [@](#): > > Washington, DC is once again the nation’s 'Murder Capital," according to a new study released today. > > The study, conducted by [SafeStreetsDC.com](http://SafeStreetsDC.com) ([www.SafeStreetsDC.com](http://www.SafeStreetsDC.com)), a public safety watchdog group, compared the annual number of murders per 100,000 residents in American cities with populations greater than 500,000. This was the same standard used to determine DC’s previous rank as murder capital. In compiling the data, the group relied on homicide statistics from the FBI and police department homicide units from around the country. > > According to the numbers, DC outranked all major cities, and is again the nation’s “murder capital.” ---
**Author:** ![G-RAY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d9b06d/32.png) [@G-RAY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-RAY)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/84 "2003-09-15T04:59:11Z")
This is a dumb fucking idea. I think the biggest problem is that, just like outside of schools, The people that would be carrying guns would be the ones you would not want to be carrying, insecure touchy head cases with small dicks. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/85 "2003-09-15T07:12:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by G-RAY \* > \*\*This is a dumb fucking idea. I think the biggest problem is that, just like outside of schools, The people that would be carrying guns would be the ones you would not want to be carrying, insecure touchy head cases with small dicks. \*\* Hey, I notice you’re in Oregon, too. Does it bother you that you’re living in a state where people with CCW permits have always been able to bring guns into schools? Even though it’s not caused any problems? I don’t know if I should bother asking for a cite that the people carrying are the “insecure touchy head cases,” since I’m pretty sure it was just an unsupported insult. If you want to just go insulting people, that’s what the Pit is for… Oh, Q.E.D.? I think that was Susanann’s point… ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/86 "2003-09-15T07:52:45Z")
I think this is just a good reason not want to live in Utah. And if you must, to have have a strong belief in home schooling. I’d rather live somewhere they banned rocks personaly ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/87 "2003-09-15T11:13:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*By whom? people who like getting [murdered](http://www.safestreetsdc.com/subpages/murdercap.html)? Washington, DC is once again the nation’s 'Murder Capital," according to a new study released today. > \*\* No. Washington DC is considered “safer” by all/most of those who think it is “safer” when teachers and other decent law abiding citizens are not allowed to carry guns for self defense. In Washington DC, virtually no teacher, nor any other law abiding private citizen, is allowed to carry a gun, in school, or otherwise. It is a “gun free zone”. So, if you feel safer with no law abiding citizen carrying a gun, with no teachers being allowed to carry a gun, then move to/live in/go to school in Washington DC, that is the place for you. It is the only city in the United States that I know of which has the type of gun ban that lots and lots of people want and need to feel safe, and for them to feel that their children are safe. I wish you and your school age children Good luck there! ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/88 "2003-09-15T12:38:20Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Me_ > **_I_ think it’s a good idea. I will continue to do so until and unless someone explains to me exactly what the downside of this is. Nobody seems to making making any serious attempt to do that, just dismissing it with a sneer, "That’s Crazy. You’re an idiot."** And, as if to prove my point, we get this: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by G-RAY \* > \*\*This is a dumb fucking idea. I think the biggest problem is that, just like outside of schools, The people that would be carrying guns would be the ones you would not want to be carrying, insecure touchy head cases with small dicks. \*\* Once again, I am going to ask, can anyone here come up with any evidence as to how this change in the law will have any negative repercussions? Something, that is, beyond: “It’s crazy. Guns are icky. They make me feel uncomfortable. You’re a wacko gun nut.” Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/89 "2003-09-15T16:44:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > **Washington DC is considered “safer” by all/most of those who think it is “safer” when teachers and other decent law abiding citizens are not allowed to carry guns for self defense.** That doesn’t change the fact that it has the highest per capita murder rate in the US. Just because people aren’t allowed to have guns doesn’t make a place safe. I don’t know how you can see around you with your head so far up there. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/90 "2003-09-15T17:58:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*There are a hundred million americans who own guns. Some of them have jobs as teachers, pilots, doctors, Pharacists, police, landscapers, bar owners, rock stars, actors, computer programmers, radiologists, medical assistants, etc. > > Would you ban them from carrying their gun in a school? > > If you just got off an airplane with your pilot who carries a gun, would you not allow him into your school because he might be dangerous? > > If your gun carrying phamacist or doctor walks into a school with his gun, does he somehow become less trustworthy, less stable than he was when he was in his doctors office? > > Would you take your children or even go into a bar or restaruant where the bar owner has a gun? > > If you dont trust people who own or carry guns, then why would you trust any gun owner ? Why would you even hire an attorney who has a ccw? > > Why are teachers less stable, less trustworthy, than people who have other jobs like pharmacy, or nursing, or cutting grass? > > What am I missing? Why are teachers singled out as not being as trustworthy and why are they inherrently more dangerous than attorneys or rock stars or pediatricians or the minimum wage mall security guards with guns? Why is everyone so “down” specifically on teachers? \*\* By this logic, anyone with a permit should be allowed to carry a gun anywhere. Airline passengers should be allowed to have guns if pilots are, White House visitors, visitors to other federal properties, etc. There are reasons that even permit holders are not allowed to carry their weapons in certain places. I assume that the reason some states don’t allow carrying in schools is because schools are full of children and guns are seen as endangering the schools as much or more than they safeguard the schools, not because teachers are inherently untrustworthy. From what I understand, the law has nothing to do with teachers specifically. It is whether or not permit holders, which just happen to include teachers, are allowed to carry on school grounds. The arguments for and against the law are whether it would make the children (and teachers I suppose) that go to the schools safer or put them in more danger to allow concealed carry on school grounds, so I think you are arguing the wrong point. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\* That doesn’t change the fact that it has the highest per capita murder rate in the US. Just because people aren’t allowed to have guns doesn’t make a place safe. I don’t know how you can see around you with your head so far up there._\* I think your sarcasm alarm must be broken, otherwise it would have been going off some time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/91 "2003-09-15T18:32:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by G-RAY \* > \*\*I think the biggest problem is that, just like outside of schools, The people that would be carrying guns would be the ones you would not want to be carrying, insecure touchy head cases with small dicks. \*\* So they’d be just like you, but with guns? Or are you saying that you carry as well? I’m confused. BTW, do you consider women who carry as people with small dicks? I can see how you might be confused, as someone who has never seen a vagina, but women don’t actually have dicks. ---
**Author:** ![badmana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@badmana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badmana)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/92 "2003-09-15T19:10:40Z")
I dunno, I can see **Susanann** ’s point about Washington DC. Since I am a Canadian I’m probably not welcome into this discussion since we don’t have CCW laws but I want to ask: how common is it that a CCW “legal” gun is used against the person carrying compared to how many times a CCW person has had to use said gun in a defensive and legal manner? Because everyone here is harking on “what ifs” with regards to only teachers. Are teachers that small/weak/pathetic over there? Why are we treating teachers are if they were children? If CCW is already legal, and as long as there isn’t a string of shooting incidents against CCW owners, why are we seperating teachers from the rest of the population? There are certainly more stressful occupations out there and I haven’t heard of many CCW permited folks going ape (I would think malls would be ripe for retailers with CCWs killing stupid ass customers). If CCW is legal, teachers should be ok to carry. They already carry to the local malls, to the movie theaters and to concerts etc. Why can’t they carry to the classroom? I’m not expecting the teachers to show the class he/she’s carrying. Just give them the legal right to carry if they want. Let the teachers (who should already be resposible, they ARE teachers right?) make their own decisions. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/93 "2003-09-15T22:00:14Z")
In reality, the whole scenario of students jumping a teacher to get the gun away _should never happen_, because the entire point of concealed carry is that nobody else knows you’re carrying a gun. The way it’s supposed to work, the only person who knows you’re carrying a gun is **you**. If everyone else knows, you did something wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/94 "2003-09-15T22:20:35Z")
For that matter, what are all the _other_ students doing, while this guy wrestles with the teacher? Sit respectfully in their seats and wait to get shot? ---
**Author:** ![TonyJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9c0ed/32.png) [@TonyJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonyJ)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/95 "2003-09-16T01:21:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > \*\*For that matter, what are all the _other_ students doing, while this guy wrestles with the teacher? Sit respectfully in their seats and wait to get shot? \*\* I’d bet their most likely to run or watch. They might help, but I find that to be less likely of a case - people are unusually hopeful in bad situations. But as **catsix** pointed out, this is the unlikely possibility extending from another unlikely possibility. On the other hand, if every teacher is supposed to carry, then wondering if the teacher has a concealed weapon is a moot point. If on the other, other hand every teacher does not carry, then it makes the idea less effective. It occurs to me then that teachers carrying guns aren’t really effective unless most do it, so in my opinion, it would have to be most or none. Hmm… I think I’ll change my position for now, and here’s why: 1. As it is now, not every teacher is going to have a gun. 2. Those that do will probably have a prior interest in guns - enough to get the permit - and thus have some experience with them. Well, enough so they don’t shoot themselves at least, so they’re less of a danger to everyone else. 3. I doubt that your typical teacher will both own a gun and want to bring it to school, so it’s would be a minor issue. That said, there’s still some things to keep in mind: 1. A person untrained in close-quarter battle is still a liability. 2. A person wielding a gun in a situation where the police are looking for people wielding a gun is asking for trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/96 "2003-09-16T01:33:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badmana \* > \*\* > Since I am a Canadian I’m probably not welcome into this discussion since we don’t have CCW laws but I want to ask: how common is it that a CCW “legal” gun is used against the person carrying compared to how many times a CCW person has had to use said gun in a defensive and legal manner? \*\* You are welcome here, and I always thought it was interesting how lawful/non-violent native-born Canadians are who move to America, particularly those ex-Canadians who live in Florida, they have an extremely low crime rate from what I seem to remember, they commit very very few crimes, fewer violent crimes, much lower than Canadians living in Canada, even though when Canadians move to America, they are allowed to buy and carry handguns and are not restricted by strict Canadian gun laws. Anyways, a better question might be: What is the crime rate of private citizen CCW holders(who are not allowed in schools), compared to police, or ex-police officers who carry guns(who are allowed in schools)? Unless you can show a substantially lower crime rate among police compared to private citizens, then this topic question doesnt make sense. If the police and ex-police have a higher crime rate than ccw holders(and I think they do), then the idea of letting armed police into schools and not letting teachers carry guns is totaly idiotic. I dont have the numbers handy, but I have seen studies in the past that show that private citizens who were never police, and who have CCW’s, have lower crime rates than people who are police or ex-police. “Private citizen” ccw holders are about the lowest of any identifiable demographic group in committing crimes. Most studies of how many crimes are committed by ccw holders include large numbers of ex-police who have committed crimes, when those studies factored out the ex-cops, the crime rates of ccw holders really dropped from an already low level. Although the police(an ex-police) do have a lower crime rate than the average population, private citizen ccw holders have an even lower rate than the police. ---
**Author:** ![badmana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@badmana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badmana)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326/97 "2003-09-16T18:03:42Z")
If your stats are correct **Susanann** then it would make a convincing argument. I also want to just point out that Canadians moving to florida are going to be rather older (and richer) so I don’t know if you can include them to make a point. (I think this has already been pointed out sometime before). What is an interesting point is that many people in Canada have guns but guns are rarely used in crimes here. It’s not because of availability. In my younger days I’ve seen my sister’s drug dealing BF and various “bad” friend’s tote out a hand gun. Buying a gun off the street isn’t very hard if you know the right (or wrong) people. BTW I’m slightly pro-gun for purely selfish reasons. I’m taking a gun training course this fall to get my gun permit for target shooting and having a CCW would be nice. I’d then be able to transport my gun(s) without having to get through all red tape our government demands (you need a gun transport permit to move a gun from your home for any purpose). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/utah-teachers-allowed-to-carry-concealed-guns-in-classrooms-is-this-a-good-idea/201326.md?page=4)