# Uvalde, Texas school shooting - the political thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 24, 2022, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036 "2022-05-24T21:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/381 "2022-05-26T21:40:55Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’ll take that proposal seriously when anti-gun-control conservative politicians actually start proposing and funding any such “money-pumping” into the public well-being. Until then, it ranks with “thoughts and prayers” and all the other distraction techniques attempting to deflect attention from better gun regulation. Do you think that strict gun laws and heavy enforcement of them will be cheap, or more likely to be supported by anti-gun-control politicians? Why do you take them more seriously then? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/382 "2022-05-26T21:46:33Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > They define “mass public shooting” as one where four or more people are murdered, at least one of those in a public place, and with no connection to some other underlying crime, like a drug deal gone bad or a gang war. By that definition there have been 13 mass public shootings since 1966, in which 146 people were killed and “at least” 182 injured. I don’t know how accurate those numbers are Possibly horribly out of date. 59 were killed in Las Vegas and 49 in Orlando, so that’s 108 out of 146 right there. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/383 "2022-05-26T21:47:04Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Those countries don’t want guns. So they don’t use them, and are afraid if they see one. I’d say that it’s more that they aren’t terrified to leave the house without one. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/384 "2022-05-26T21:47:21Z")
[I want to add something that – were it in me to do, I’d edit and rewrite. Alas, I can’t, so I’m posting it pretty raw.] One thing that really puzzles me (not even a little bit): Abortion. Conservatives: - Want it banned. Overturn Roe at the Federal level, close it down in every possible state, make it criminal, and then use **[Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers](https://www.guttmacher.org/evidence-you-can-use/targeted-regulation-abortion-providers-trap-laws)** (TARP) to close down as many of the rest as possible. They want to throw the patient in jail and put anybody that they can possibly connect _to_ the patient into bankruptcy via third-party civil lawsuits. No screwing around (read: _support_ for) with distractions like: - Education - Opportunity - Access to affordable, high-quality health care - Nutrition - Access to affordable, high-quality day care - Substance abuse treatment (non-criminal) - Well paying jobs - Contraception - Comprehensive sex education or any other societal determinants that may play even a small role in abortion. Nossiree, they go right to what they think is the only thing that matters: the prescription drug or the medical procedure and the people connected to these things. Contrast that with gun violence. Conservatives are laser focused on: - The weakening of the ‘family unit’ - Taking Jebus out of our classroom and country - Violent video games - Hollywood action movies - LGBTQ+ people … just existing - Allowing people of color to breed, enter the country, or exist - Mental illness (not that they want to support care; just deflect blame) and anything else they can think of. With abortion … the problem is … abortions. With gun violence … the problem is … anything _but_ guns. It’s also not the dealers, the manufacturers, the industry advocacy groups, the lobbyists, etc. Nuh-uh. It’s not them and it’s not _any of_ that. It’s just that way for abortion. Liberals are generally in favor of funding and improving social determinants that are likely to have a salutary effect on _both_ abortion _and_ gun violence. We’re interested in fixing the symptom _and_ the underlying problems. It’s so much more cost-effective, because - it has a better chance of working than the ‘last mile’ approaches that necessarily must create profit, and - it has a significant likelihood of knock-on effects – improvements in other areas not even thought of. Call it collateral improvement. But nope. Not today’s conservatives. They want to deflect by pointing to their pet social determinants, but they will _never_ put their money where their mouths are (or, more correctly, bite the hands that finance them). I wish that “confused” is what I was. But that’s not the feeling at all. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/385 "2022-05-26T21:48:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure, someday the popular media will get similarly tired of having frenzies about school shootings. But if you think that that means that school shootings will stop happening, you’re kidding yourself. I’m not looking forward to the day that school shootings are no longer newsworthy events. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/386 "2022-05-26T22:04:28Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > One thing that really puzzles me (not even a little bit): > > Abortion. > > Conservatives: > > - Want it banned. Overturn Roe at the Federal level, close it down in every possible state, make it criminal, and then use **[Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers](https://www.guttmacher.org/evidence-you-can-use/targeted-regulation-abortion-providers-trap-laws)** (TARP) to close down as many of the rest as possible. They want to throw the patient in jail and put anybody that they can possibly connect _to_ the patient into bankruptcy via third-party civil lawsuits. > > No screwing around (read: _support_ for) with distractions like: > > - Education > - Opportunity > - Access to affordable, high-quality health care > - Nutrition > - Access to affordable, high-quality day care > - Substance abuse treatment (non-criminal) > - Well paying jobs > - Contraception > - Comprehensive sex education > > or any other societal determinants that may play even a small role in abortion. > > Nossiree, they go right to what they think is the only thing that matters: the prescription drug or the medical procedure and the people connected to these things. > > Contrast that with gun violence. I guess I’d say that people who want to make abortion illegal abortion want to make abortion illegal, and I’d then have to contrast that with gun violence by noting that they — want to make that illegal, too? ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/387 "2022-05-26T22:08:43Z")
Nah. I’ll TL;DR it for simplicity: The general conservative position on the two issues: Abortion: we go after abortion, abortion recipients, and abortion providers. We do this through legislation, litigation, and criminalization. We don’t even pretend to look at social determinants that may contribute. If we do, it’s to block Democratic support of these issues. Gun violence: we go after (see: hand-waving) _anything but_ the guns, the gun industry, the gun lobby, the gun dealers. We want _you_ to look at social determinants that may contribute, but don’t ask us to care about them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/388 "2022-05-26T22:27:57Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Abortion: we go after abortion, abortion recipients, and abortion providers. We do this through legislation, litigation, and criminalization. We don’t even pretend to look at social determinants that may contribute. If we do, it’s to block Democratic support of these issues. > > Gun violence: we go after (see: hand-waving) _anything but_ the guns, the gun industry, the gun lobby, the gun dealers. We want _you_ to look at social determinants that may contribute, but don’t ask us to care about them. Abortion: make it a crime. Gun violence: make it a crime. ::shrugs:: ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/389 "2022-05-26T22:38:19Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Possibly horribly out of date. 59 were killed in Las Vegas and 49 in Orlando, so that’s 108 out of 146 right there. The people who wrote it run The Violence Project and I looked through a report on their database [here](https://projects.voanews.com/mass-shootings/) and it looks like Vegas is included, but Orlando was not. I looked it up and was reminded the Orlando shooter had sworn allegiance to ISIS and it was deemed an Islamist terrorist attack. So I guess that’s the “other underlying criminal activity” mentioned. A more detailed definition is at that page I linked to. And apparently you can request their full database. > Between 1966 - February 2020 there were 168 mass shootings in the United States, defined by the Congressional Research Service as “a multiple homicide incident in which four or more victims are murdered with firearms — not including the offender(s) — within one event, and at least some of the murders occurred in a public location or locations in close geographical proximity (e.g., a workplace, school, restaurant, or other public settings), and the murders are not attributable to any other underlying criminal activity or commonplace circumstance (armed robbery, criminal competition, insurance fraud, argument, or romantic triangle).” > > Put in perspective, mass shootings are statistically rare, accounting for fewer than 1% of all firearm homicides in the United States. But they are occurring regularly in a growing number of venues, leaving a trail of mass destruction that emotionally outweighs their numbers. > > According to The Violence Project, nearly all mass shooters have four things in common: > > ``` > Early childhood trauma and exposure to violence at a young age > An identifiable grievance or crisis point > Have studied the actions of past shooters and seek validation for their methods and motives > The means to carry out an attack > > ``` > **[VOA Special Report | History of mass shooters](https://projects.voanews.com/mass-shootings/)** > > Who commits public mass shootings? What motivates them to kill? With the help of a landmark database, VOA examines the social, psychological, emotional and environmental factors that contributed to these rare crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/390 "2022-05-27T00:35:50Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > But worse, for the purposes of this discussion, they’re _poorly trained_ . Whether in marksmanship, weapons handling, rules of engagement, they’re just the lowest common denominator, at best. Probably _every_ gun owner I know (which isn’t a whole lot, admittedly, I don’t run in those circles) would be better suited to protecting people from crime. Police are generally the people I trust _least_ with firearms. I’m also not a huge fan of the cops, but I happen to personally know a few. Ongoing firearms training, which includes marksmanship drills at the local gun range, is part of the job. I know quite a few gun owners, but all but a handful of them are experienced only with long guns. Not exactly suitable for protecting the average citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/391 "2022-05-27T00:53:12Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Do you think that strict gun laws and heavy enforcement of them will be cheap, or more likely to be supported by anti-gun-control politicians? Why do you take them more seriously then? I think you mistake **Kimstu** ’s point. It’s not about the cost of these programs, or how much we can trust a generic “politician” to follow their campaign promises. It’s about the fact that pro gun politicians who insist the solution to gun violence is better mental health programs, are also ideologically opposed to any government spending on health or basic social services. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/392 "2022-05-27T01:34:12Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Do you think that strict gun laws and heavy enforcement of them will be cheap, or more likely to be supported by anti-gun-control politicians? Why do you take them more seriously then? Because I think that the people who advocate them are generally more sincere, more concerned for the well-being of Americans overall, and more willing to back their advocacy up with actual implementation, than the people who claim to support vague and non-specific social remedies as a substitute for better gun regulation which they utterly reject. No, I don’t assume that proposals for better gun regulation will necessarily be more successful in overcoming conservative resistance and indifference, and actually accomplishing improved gun safety in our society, than the anti-gun-control lip service to unspecified social-welfare spending will be. I think conservative resistance and indifference to any gun safety measures at all may well prove to be an insurmountable obstacle. But the former measures at least have more of a chance than the latter, because more of the people who are proposing them actually mean and want to do what they say. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/393 "2022-05-27T02:14:00Z")
Not sure if this belongs here, but I’ll put it here anyway: > **[Yanks, Rays team up for gun violence awareness](https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33989677/new-york-yankees-tampa-bay-rays-collaborate-social-media-spread-awareness-gun-violence)** > > In wake of the mass shootings in Buffalo, New York, and Uvalde, Texas, the New York Yankees and the Tampa Bay Rays used their social media feeds to bring attention to gun violence on Thursday night. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/394 "2022-05-27T09:06:38Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Just today in Toronto a man was reported walking through a neighbourhood with a rifle. Police received multiple 911 calls and converged on the scene. The man was arrested, That’s not what I’ve read, I’ve read he was fatally shot.: > **[Toronto police fatally shoot man seen carrying rifle near elementary school](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/26/toronto-police-man-rifle-elementary-school)** > > Officers responded to reports of a man in his late teens or early 20s carrying a firearm in Scarborough’s Port Union area > **[Police kill man carrying pellet gun in Scarborough neighbourhood](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/police-kill-man-carrying-pellet-gun-in-scarborough-neighbourhood/article_9c8cf875-919b-58d5-a418-34549876642f.html)** > > The incident happened in the area of Maberley Crescent and Oxhorn Road. Nearby schools were placed into lockdown and others placed in hold-and-secure status. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/395 "2022-05-27T09:19:46Z")
You mean they actually engaged the guy? Madness, I say! Don’t they realize that _he could have shot them?_ > **[Texas Police Lieutenant Says Cops Were Reluctant to Engage Gunman Because...](https://www.mediaite.com/tv/texas-police-lieutenant-says-cops-were-reluctant-to-engage-gunman-because-they-couldve-been-shot/)** > > A Texas DPS official said responding officers were cautious as they entered Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, Tuesday, as they "could have been shot." ---
**Author:** ![MethidManTMA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MethidManTMA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MethidManTMA)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/396 "2022-05-27T09:35:25Z")
[As this video illustrates](https://youtu.be/yts2F44RqFw?t=430), it’s not about shaping society but about punishing the “right” people. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/397 "2022-05-27T09:36:20Z")
I hate how secretive Canadian Police/Media are with basic facts involving shootings. Surely they could’ve mentioned to reporters if the recovered rifle was loaded. This answer really would make the difference (for me) between a potential shooter to an unaware idiot breaking Canadian firearm transportation laws. Sigh. My next question. How did this go down? I hope this was a real threat and not the case of Police brutality. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/398 "2022-05-27T09:40:06Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I hate how secretive Canadian Police/Media are with basic facts involving shootings. I’m appreciative of them not commenting on details until an investigation is done. > [@orcenio](#): > > an unaware idiot breaking Canadian firearm transportation laws The one thing they _have_ said is that he “confronted” the responding officers. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/399 "2022-05-27T09:41:08Z")
I came here to say that my Canadian relatives (who 1000% support the police in almost any other situation) are ranting about police overreacting in this case, without any sense of irony. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/400 "2022-05-27T09:55:52Z")
Considering that people could see and report to 911 that a man is carrying a firearm, he was clearly breaking our restricted firearm transportation laws here in Canada (Police had every right to react to this). They only allow for carrying inside a: > “locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation” But I would love a reassurance that the person wasn’t just a stupid kid with no ill intent. I guess I need to trust that the facts will be released when they are released. ETA: I’m assuming this was a restricted firearm… This could also be a non-restricted hunting rifle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036.md?page=21)