# "v." versus "vs." **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 5, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847 "2009-06-05T17:14:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/1 "2009-06-05T17:14:45Z")
Sometimes I’ll see the abbreviation “v.” between two opposing parties (as in the current GQ thread on “Bush v. Gore”). Other times, “vs.” is used. Moreover, “v.” is often (though not always) pronounced “vee” (as in “Roe vee Wade”), while “vs.” seems always to be pronounced “versus” (“Roe versus Wade”). My question, then, is: Do “v.” and “vs.” mean exactly the same thing, or are there differences in connotation? Is one more correct or preferred than the other? Why are both used? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/2 "2009-06-05T17:19:19Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Sometimes I’ll see the abbreviation “v.” between two opposing parties (as in the current GQ thread on “Bush v. Gore”). Other times, “vs.” is used. > > Moreover, “v.” is often (though not always) pronounced “vee” (as in “Roe vee Wade”), while “vs.” seems always to be pronounced “versus” (“Roe versus Wade”). > > My question, then, is: Do “v.” and “vs.” mean exactly the same thing, or are there differences in connotation? Is one more correct or preferred than the other? Why are both used? They both, in a legal context at least, mean “versus,” which is Latin for “against.” (In a symbolic logic context, “v” from “vel” is the operator symbol for disjunction.) The form “v.” is the one directed by the Bluebook, which is still the standard citation manual for legal writing. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/3 "2009-06-05T17:21:56Z")
They both mean the same thing, but when referring to a legal case, it’s almost always “Doe v. Jones,” and is pronounced “vee” by almost all attorneys. When it’s a fight or some other non-legal contest, it’s “Ali vs. Frazier” or “Homeowner vs. leaky toilet,” and is pronounced “versus.” I don’t know why the distinction arose, but it’s pretty consistent - so consistent, in fact, that it sounds somehow wrong when the uses are reversed. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/4 "2009-06-05T18:30:51Z")
Back in the 60s and 70s, the two terms were interchangeable, and lawyers would use “Smith vs. Jones” to identify a case. I clearly remember the abortion decision called “Roe versus Wade” at the time it came out and for several years afterwards. By the mid-80s, “v.” replaced “vs.” “Roe vee Wade” sounded very odd to me when it became common. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/5 "2009-06-05T18:46:32Z")
So what’s the point to it? It doesn’t save any paper. It does save an infinitesimally trivial amount of ink or toner to not print the ‘s’ but your toner cartridge probably leaks more toner while printing a document. Is the time saved in not saying the “sus” really worth it, even to attorneys who sound like they’re paid by the syllable when they talk? ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/6 "2009-06-05T18:47:28Z")
I am told that in the Queen’s English, the “v.” in a case name is pronounced “and.” I don’t know if that’s true. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/7 "2009-06-05T18:48:19Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > lawyers would use “Smith vs. Jones” to identify a case. … > > By the mid-80s, “v.” replaced “vs.” Quite incorrect. I just looked at the citations used in _Brown v. Board_ (1954) and _Pennoyer v. Neff_ (1878). In each, the Court used the “A v. B” form in referring to other cases. ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/8 "2009-06-05T18:54:10Z")
I was told v is used in Supreme Court cases while vs is used elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/9 "2009-06-05T18:54:25Z")
“Vee” is the most common pronunciation of _v._ by attorneys, but it’s not as overwhelming as is implied in this thread. It’s very commonly also pronounced as “versus” or “against” (which is my preference). The question of using _v._ instead of _vs._ is simply a matter of style. There’s no particular reason for it. > [@tr0psn4j](#): > > I was told v is used in Supreme Court cases while vs is used elsewhere. That’s wrong. The Bluebook, which is the style manual used by most American attorneys and courts, uses _v._ for all cases. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/10 "2009-06-05T19:35:21Z")
Really? I’ve always pronounced them “versus”- in my head, anyway. I don’t think I’ve ever sat down with someone IRL and said, “Hey, whadaya think about them Roe Versus Wade?” ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/11 "2009-06-05T20:10:48Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > I am told that in the Queen’s English, the “v.” in a case name is pronounced “and.” I don’t know if that’s true. > > –Cliffy I’m unsure if Canada, with its curious hybrid of US and English spellings and words, and an accent closer to American than English, can be said to use the Queen’s English. But certainly in Canada, the usual practice is to pronounce “and” instead of “vee.” For example, a case styled _Smith v. Brown_ would be spoken of as “Smith and Brown.” ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/12 "2009-06-05T20:20:55Z")
Just speculation, but based on experience, the preference for _v._ or _vs._ depends on the idiosyncracies of the guy who taught you freshman civil procedure (a five hour course and a real bitch). The Blue Book, however, favored the one letter abbreviation even back in the dark ages of the Johnson Administration. ---
**Author:** ![ClintPhoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9bd4f/32.png) [@ClintPhoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ClintPhoenix)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/13 "2009-06-05T20:25:08Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > […]But certainly in Canada, the usual practice is to pronounce “and” instead of “vee.” For example, a case styled _Smith v. Brown_ would be spoken of as “Smith and Brown.” QFT A Canadian judge has told me that the term ‘versus’ doesn’t belong in our law. That said, some Canadian lawyers think that ‘v.’ can be pronounced ‘versus’. It’s not all that rare to hear. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/14 "2009-06-05T20:43:03Z")
> [@ClintPhoenix](#): > > QFT > > A Canadian judge has told me that the term ‘versus’ doesn’t belong in our law. That said, some Canadian lawyers think that ‘v.’ can be pronounced ‘versus’. It’s not all that rare to hear. Divorce cases here are the same way, being captioned: ```auto _____________________________________________ ) In re the Marriage of: ) ) CARL WINSLOW, ) ) Petitioner, ) ) and ) ) ) HARRIETTE WINSLOW, ) ) Respondent. ) _____________________________________________ ) ``` Gracious, work is boring this afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/15 "2009-06-05T20:47:04Z")
Out of curiosity, how many people actually pronounce it ‘versus’? It seems to me more common for people, especially when taking sports, to just say ‘verse’. I find that to be my default lately. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/16 "2009-06-05T20:49:28Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Divorce cases here are the same way, being captioned: > > ```auto > > _____________________________________________ > ) > In re the Marriage of: ) > ) > CARL WINSLOW, ) > ) > Petitioner, ) > ) > and ) > ) > ) > HARRIETTE WINSLOW, ) > ) > Respondent. ) > _____________________________________________ ) > > ``` But the citation style for that would be _In re Winslow_ or _In re the Marriage of Winslow_, not _Winslow and Winslow_, right? In any case, this isn’t universal. In some (most?) states it would be a straight _Winslow v. Winslow_. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/17 "2009-06-05T21:26:52Z")
And if it were a movie, it would be _Kramer versus Kramer_! ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/18 "2009-06-05T21:27:53Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > It seems to me more common for people, especially when taking sports, to just say ‘verse’. I’ve always taken that to be a sign of illiteracy, indicating that the speaker doesn’t actually know what the word is. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/19 "2009-06-05T21:38:42Z")
“Verse” has actually become a verb. “I’m going to the Cubs game on Saturday. They’re versing the Giants.” ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/20 "2009-06-05T21:44:57Z")
For me the “vs.” always harks back to my boyhood, when I was a big fan of superhero comic books, which often had that word in the title, as in “Batman vs. The Joker”. On the other hand, “v.” always makes me think of a German name, or possibly a Dutch one. A lower case “v” is often used in lists or other abbreviated contexts in place of “von” or “van”, e.g. Friedrich v. Richthofen. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847.md?page=2)