# "v." versus "vs." **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 5, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847 "2009-06-05T17:14:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/21 "2009-06-05T21:56:09Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > “Verse” has actually become a verb. “I’m going to the Cubs game on Saturday. They’re versing the Giants.” Ugh. Yeah, I know - a language is a living thing, and it changes with the passage of time. But “versing?” ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/22 "2009-06-05T22:07:04Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Back in the 60s and 70s, the two terms were interchangeable, and lawyers would use “Smith vs. Jones” to identify a case. I clearly remember the abortion decision called “Roe versus Wade” at the time it came out and for several years afterwards. > > By the mid-80s, “v.” replaced “vs.” “Roe vee Wade” sounded very odd to me when it became common. I agree with this poster. I always learned vs (pronounced versus) in grade and high school. I went to school in the 70s. I never heard the “vee” until the 80s. No one ever said “Brown “Vee” the Board of Education.” It might have been written that way in legal journals and legal classes, but not in school textbooks. At least not in any I ever had. It’s not a matter of saving anything it’s just a “style.” Like the Chicago Tribune has it’s “style,” of punctuation. There’s nothing that makes it any more right or wrong, but by always using the same way, it brings uniformity to the paper. By always writing a case the same way it brings uniformity to the the legal writing process In otherwords if legal writing said "It’s OK to use “v” or “vs” or “versus” someone else might say “Gee there are three choices already, I’ll just use my own.” ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/23 "2009-06-05T22:15:15Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > I’ve always taken that to be a sign of illiteracy, indicating that the speaker doesn’t actually know what the word is. I don’t think it’s illiteracy, really, just lazy tongue. We tend to unconsciously eliminate syllables between certain difficult series of consonants when we say them often. A V and two S’es can be a pain if you have to say “versus” constantly. After a while it becomes part of the language. Just look at the two-syllable “Wednesday” or “fith” instead of “fifth.” > [@acsenray](#): > > “Verse” has actually become a verb. “I’m going to the Cubs game on Saturday. They’re versing the Giants.” Now _that_ is just stupid. Reminds me of grown people who refer to multiplication as “timesing.” ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/24 "2009-06-05T22:49:05Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > Ugh. Yeah, I know - a language is a living thing, and it changes with the passage of time. But “versing?” ☹ The game is sheer poetry. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/25 "2009-06-05T23:14:29Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > Ugh. Yeah, I know - a language is a living thing, and it changes with the passage of time. But “versing?” ☹ I remember when I was in school in England that “vee” had becoming a verb too- so if you were challenging someone to a game of one-on-one basketball, or chess, or whatever, you said, “I’ll vee you”. Very weird. I never said it. FWIW, Florida administrative court cases are styled with a capital V, i.e., “Steve V. John’s Market”. I have no idea why. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/26 "2009-06-06T01:04:27Z")
My trusty Associated Press Stylebook says to use _versus_ (or vs.) when refering to something in opposition or rivalry with something else, but to use _v._ when refering to court cases. Since the AP would normally be loath to use two different abbreviations for the same thing, it seems to me that _v._ must have some sort of official or professional standing. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/27 "2009-06-06T01:51:20Z")
It’s been “v.”, pronounced “vee,” since I went to law school 20-some years ago. When I very rarely see “vs.” used in print in a legal context, it sticks out to me, because it looks like the lawyer doesn’t quite know what he’s doing. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/28 "2009-06-06T02:05:36Z")
In my recollection most people pronounce “v” and “vs” as “versus”. No one in my circle are lawyers. I do notice that reporters seem to say “vee” most of the time. I would, though, like to get a _real_ expert’s opinion. Anybody know Judge Judy’s phone number? Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/29 "2009-06-06T02:27:52Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Since the AP would normally be loath to use two different abbreviations for the same thing, it seems to me that _v._ must have some sort of official or professional standing. As several of has already said, it’s the style preferred by the Bluebook, which is the stylebook used by almost all American courts and lawyers. It’s a de facto professional standard, mainly by consensus. There are no consequences for deviating from theis standard though. A court isn’t going to reject a pleading just because it uses “vs.” instead of “v.” The federal procedure rules require a court to treat any pleading as if it has conformed with all superficial formatting. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/30 "2009-06-06T03:16:42Z")
“v” is listed as versus in #16 in list and “versus” is simply listed as #1 versus in the [ACRONYM FINDER](http://www.acronymfinder.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/31 "2009-06-06T03:37:41Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > I am told that in the Queen’s English, the “v.” in a case name is pronounced “and.” I don’t know if that’s true. > > –Cliffy True it is. In countries still historically or closely connected to the UK system, the convention is to pronounce the “v” as “and” (or sometimes “against”) in court proceedings. You learn this early in law school, and it becomes second nature. Kramer v Kramer came out while I was still in law school, and you could use it as a way to pick the law students at social events - “Have you seen that new Dustin Hoffman film?” “What, Kramer and Kramer?” Anybody else pronounced it as “vee” or"versus". It’s a quaint custom, but not very efficient. Sometimes there are multiple parties on one side or the other, and so pronouncing the v as “and” can lead to confusion as to who was on what side. Thus, “Diocese of Bath and Wells v Jones and Smith” (not a real case) would potentially get very confusing. That’s when you tend to use “against”. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/32 "2009-06-06T03:38:32Z")
> [@gotpasswords](#): > > So what’s the point to it? > > It doesn’t save any paper. It does save an infinitesimally trivial amount of ink or toner to not print the ‘s’ but your toner cartridge probably leaks more toner while printing a document. > > Is the time saved in not saying the “sus” really worth it, even to attorneys who sound like they’re paid by the syllable when they talk? Why? 'Cause, mostly. It’s not like you’ll be thrown about and made a mockery of for saying Versus or printing vs., it’s just done because that’s how it eventually caught on (with a little boost from formal protocol I suppose). From what I’ve noticed (and echoing others), v. seems to be used for, and exclusively used for, legal cases, Brown v. Board, Moose Lodge No. 107 v. Irvis etc, whereas vs. is used for sports, superhero fights and whatnot. (Oddly enough, I’ve noticed that sports like to say it “verse” and movies and the like use “versus” for some reason, but that part may just be confirmation bias). > [@Early\_Out](#): > > I’ve always taken that to be a sign of illiteracy, indicating that the speaker doesn’t actually know what the word is. Nah, I very well know what it means, but depending on context I may say it one way or the other. Most people eliminate at least SOME syllables from their speech, versus is as good a word to do it with as any. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/33 "2009-06-06T13:34:50Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > Ugh. Yeah, I know - a language is a living thing, and it changes with the passage of time. But “versing?” ☹ And that’s not all! “The last time you versed me in Street Fighter, I kicked your butt!” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/34 "2009-06-06T14:20:24Z")
What **Spoons** and **ClintPhoenix** said for Canada. I would just add that when we write out the pleadings, we don’t use “versus” or “v.” or “vs.” All the pleadings use “and” just like in **Kimmy\_Gibler** ’s example, and that’s how the judgments are styled when they come from the court. It’s only once they get in the reporters that the “v.” is inserted. And I’ve never pronounced it “vee.” “Against” or “and” and maybe “versus”, but never “vee”. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/35 "2009-06-07T07:38:12Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I’m unsure if Canada, with its curious hybrid of US and English spellings and words, and an accent closer to American than English, can be said to use the Queen’s English. But certainly in Canada, the usual practice is to pronounce “and” instead of “vee.” For example, a case styled _Smith v. Brown_ would be spoken of as “Smith and Brown.” Ireland too. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/36 "2009-06-07T12:10:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I remember when I was in school in England that “vee” had becoming a verb too- so if you were challenging someone to a game of one-on-one basketball, or chess, or whatever, you said, “I’ll vee you”. I am English and have never heard of that usage. Maybe it was a regional thing or even just among kids at your school. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/37 "2009-06-07T12:14:15Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Nah, I very well know what it means, but depending on context I may say it one way or the other. Most people eliminate at least SOME syllables from their speech, versus is as good a word to do it with as any. Except that in this case you eliminate a syllable in order to pronounce it the same way as a different word that has a different meaning. At least in the Wensday example there is no possible conclusion. I go with the illiteracy argument too. I know that the language evolves by massive common missuse, but I have never understood why people who know that something is “wrong” will still go ahead and do it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/38 "2009-06-07T13:32:05Z")
“v.” is always used in citing legal cases. However, on pleadings, “vs.” is the usual convention (at least in these parts), so **Kimmy\_Gibbler** ’s example would be rendered: ```auto _____________________________________________ ) ) CARL WINSLOW, ) ) Petitioner, ) ) VS. ) ) ) HARRIETTE WINSLOW, ) ) Respondent. ) _____________________________________________ ) ``` ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/39 "2009-06-07T15:01:48Z")
So a ordinary person in the US or Canada, writing letters, replying to posts, and other ordinary writings can feel secure in always using “vs” without worrying about being thought of as illiterate? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847/40 "2009-06-07T15:48:48Z")
Yes. As has been stated before, _v._ is merely a style choice within a certain profession. It has nothing to do with literacy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/v-versus-vs/498847.md?page=3)