# VA senate seat: Looks like Webb is toast to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2006, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093 "2006-10-27T11:20:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/141 "2006-11-09T22:03:14Z")
[QUOTE=Loopydude] Well, justly or not, it’s likely the price of victory that the Dems must fix Bush’s mess and risk (as I think is completely likely) being blamed for all of it if the solution is less than perfect. It’s clearly the Republican way, so I hope the old and new Democratic leadership is prepared for the inevitable. [/QUOTE] I am again reminded of Ulysses S. Grant’s remark when his officers kept fretting about Lee’s next move: “You’d better stop worrying about what he’s going to do to _you_ and start worrying about what you’re going to do to _him_.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/142 "2006-11-09T22:03:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Dems have no good solution to the Iraq mess because there isn’t one, and that could come back to bite them in '08, as Stephen Colbert silently mused last night. Gee **BG** , I’ve always considered you quite well informed, but if you can telepathically divine what Stephen Colbert is silently musing about I’ll be **really** impressed! 😉 (Or was Colbert just silently writing his musings on a blackboard or something, and I’m whooshed?) ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/143 "2006-11-09T22:10:18Z")
I think Allen is far more shellshocked by the doom this spells to his Presidential ambitions rather than just the Senate race. He wasn’t particuarly interested in being a Senator anymore in the first place: he’d already been shifting over to pretending to be from Iowa instead of Virginia. If he had pulled this one out, he might have still had a shot. But no longer. If he can’t carry Virginia anymore, there’s almost no point. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/144 "2006-11-09T22:21:04Z")
I kind of figured his presidential ambitions were all but done for after the macaca incident, or, at the very least, '08 was not an option. Then again, the fact that Bush got elected more-or-less twice shows us anything is possible, I suppose. Watching the guy implode was truly astonishing, though. Anyone who can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory like Allen did will probably make the GOP pause if he seeks to run again. Not even Webb’s “kiddie porn” could save him. Who could have predicted? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/145 "2006-11-09T23:00:04Z")
[QUOTE=Loopydude] Just listened to a Republican Senator (didn’t catch his name) saying the problem with the Democrats is they haven’t got a plan to get us out of Iraq. [/QUOTE] He must’a been too busy to check the news yesterday: [Democrats Call for Bipartisan Summit on Iraq Strategy](http://elections.us.reuters.com/top/news/usnN08173511.html) ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/146 "2006-11-09T23:10:38Z")
From your article "Chaired by former Secretary of State James Baker, a Republican, and former Rep. Lee Hamilton, a Democrat, the group is expected to make recommendations before year’s end. Baker, a close friend of Bush’s father, is credited with saving the son’s presidency by overseeing the Florida ballot recount in the disputed 2000 election. Now, he may play a pivotal role in giving Bush a face-saving way to evolve from his refusal to consider a new strategy on Iraq, the primary foreign policy issue on which Bush’s presidency will be judged" If I were the dems I wouldn’t touch anything with a ten foot pole that Baker was involved with. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/147 "2006-11-09T23:13:39Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] We owe much thanks to that Indian feller who got called a macaca … [/QUOTE] You mean the **American** feller. Born and raised in Fairfax County, Virginia. Either you’re showing the same kind of racism as Allen, or I just got whooshed. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/148 "2006-11-09T23:27:21Z")
From Washington Monthly regarding Baker- "“Baker is primarily motivated by his desire to avoid a war at home–that things will fall apart not on the battlefield but at home. So he wants a ceasefire in American politics,” a member of one of the commission’s working groups told me. Specifically, he said, if the Democrats win back one or both houses of Congress in November, they would unleash a series of investigative hearings on Iraq, the war on terrorism, and civil liberties that could fatally weaken the administration and remove the last props of political support for the war, setting the stage for a potential Republican electoral disaster in 2008. “I guess there are people in the [Republican] party, on the Hill and in the White House, who see a political train wreck coming, and they’ve called in Baker to try to reroute the train.” [http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0609.dreyfuss.html](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0609.dreyfuss.html) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/149 "2006-11-09T23:28:47Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Not only isn’t there a plan, there\* shouldn’t\* be a plan. It is silly, stupid, and counterproductive to plan for a situation you have yet to completely assess. What we already know is bad enough, we have to know what they’ve been hiding from us. A bad plan is worse than no plan at all, much worse, it inhibits you capacity to respond to developments as they rot. [/quote] A valid point. So, since you haven’t completely assed the situation, is this a silly, stupid or counterproductive plan: > [@](#): > > As it stands now, I favor instructing the military to move immediately in the direction of removal of all our troops at the earliest practical moment, with losses of material and prestige being of no importance in comparison to saving our troops any more futile bloodshed. > [@rjung](#): > > He must’a been too busy to check the news yesterday: Democrats Call for Bipartisan Summit on Iraq Strategy So, outline their plan for us then. I don’t see one in your cite. Frankly, I don’t know that it’s the Congress’ responsibility to come up with tactical war plans. Their job is to advise and consent on the president’s cabinet members who do that. Alternatively, they can defund the war and/or revoke the AUMF. The worst plan I’ve seen put forward is the idea of partitioning Iraq. Firstly, it’s not ours to partition, and secondly, that would only make the violence worse. And don’t anyone come here and say it can’t get worse-- it can get a LOT worse. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/150 "2006-11-09T23:33:00Z")
The Democrats don’t have a plan for Iraq. But neither do the Republicans. Bush is the guy with the plans, and his isn’t working so well. Maybe time for a new planner… ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/151 "2006-11-09T23:39:53Z")
Well, that’s just it. Now that the Dems are newly-empowered, I’m not sure how they can lay it all in Bush’s lap, even if that’s where it belongs. I think they’re expected, at this point, to propose _something_. If they’re smart, they’ll try to be as bipartisan about it as possible, if only to share the blame in what is likely to be a number of choices ranging between excruciating and catastrophic. But since they can, in fact now _must_ set the legislative agenda, shared responsibility will be easier for Republicans to shrug off when '08 rolls around than it was. I’m not lamenting a change in course, BTW, at all, but this is a hell of a climate to inherit, and I’m bracing for a rough ride. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/152 "2006-11-09T23:45:40Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] You mean the **American** feller. Born and raised in Fairfax County, Virginia. Either you’re showing the same kind of racism as Allen, or I just got whooshed. :dubious: [/QUOTE] Is referring to someone’s ethnicity suddenly now the same thing as hurling an ethnic slur at them? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/153 "2006-11-09T23:50:07Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] So, outline their plan for us then. [/quote] You mean besides “We get a _bipartisan panel_ to sit down and work out a plan, something that’s better than the catastropic ‘stay the course’ strategy that we’ve been using so far”? Frankly, I find the notion that the Democrats are supposed to pull comprehensive 300-page plans for addressing all the ills of the nation inside of 24 hours of winning the election to be nothing more than right-wing jeering, especially since the Republicans have had _six years_ to implement their plans and haven’t gotten any more progress out of them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/154 "2006-11-09T23:53:01Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] You mean besides “We get a _bipartisan panel_ to sit down and work out a plan, something that’s better than the catastropic ‘stay the course’ strategy that we’ve been using so far”? [/QUOTE] Well, you responded snarklily to someone who said the Dems don’t have a plan. They don’t. You needn’t defend the deomcrats so blindingly. They don’t have a plan because they don’t have the executive office. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/155 "2006-11-09T23:53:23Z")
“As it stands now…” Very important words, **John** , pretty much crucial. It is a caveat and an admission, I’ve already make it clear that I am operating, as we all are, in a condition of ignorance. I think it is very, very unlikely that some new facts on the ground will change my position, not because my position is set, I just don’t think those new facts are there to be found. I cannot even imagine what those facts might be, but if there were some _good_ reason to hope that we can repair at least some of the damage we have so ham-fistedly created, I might very well support a further extension of our deployment there, or even a further increase in our involvement The question of our responsibility weighs heavily on me, I detest the idea of leaving these people in the lurch. We broke it, we should try and fix it. But, _as it stands now_, I see no such prospect. If you do, I am open to hear it, but it would certainly be something new. And however much I detest the idea of “bugging out”, all the others are just that much worse. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/156 "2006-11-09T23:55:40Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] Is referring to someone’s ethnicity suddenly now the same thing as hurling an ethnic slur at them? [/QUOTE] Just the kind of thing a coked-out Miami weirdo would say. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/157 "2006-11-09T23:57:36Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Well, you responded snarklily… [/QUOTE] Personally, I would love a boquet of snarklilies. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/158 "2006-11-10T00:08:40Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] “As it stands now…” Very important words, **John** , pretty much crucial. It is a caveat and an admission, I’ve already make it clear that I am operating, as we all are, in a condition of ignorance. [/QUOTE] So, it’s not silly, stupid and contraproductive to offer a plan without an assessment then? You can’t have it both ways, regardless of the caveat. If the Democrats, about whom you offered that as an explanation for their planlessness, suddenly announced they had a plan without fully assessing the situation, what would you say about that plan? Really, I’m not trying to just trick you into a corner. I honestly don’t understand why the Democrats should have a plan to get us out of Iraq other than getting their guy elected in '08. If one of them, or a group of them does develop a viable plan (after fully assessing the situation) then that would be great. But do you think they will ever get access to all the information Bush has? They really can’t do that without depsosing him. Not that there would be anything wrong with that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2006, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/159 "2006-11-10T00:11:48Z")
Do you mean like in a “deposition”, like testimony? Or like a surly crowd of peasants marching on Castle Rove with pitchforks and torches? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093/160 "2006-11-10T00:17:34Z")
I should have just come out and said “impeach”. Frankly, I think the Iraq war mess could merit impeachement, although I don’t consider it practical. IOW, the Congress, be it Republican or Democrat controlled isn’t empowered to run a war. They get to declare war and undeclare war. If what they want to do is bring the troops home, then the thing to do is to undeclare war-- ie, revoke the AUMF. Otherwise, they should conentrate on some nice, juicy hearings for Bill’s brother Bob. Which I’m sure they’re doing for both honorable and political reasons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/va-senate-seat-looks-like-webb-is-toast-to-me/378093.md?page=9)