# Vaccine mandates...are you for, or against, and why do you have the stance you have? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2021, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329 "2021-10-27T18:33:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/101 "2021-10-29T15:39:15Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Personally, I REALLY like the idea of the insurance companies deciding that COVID treatment should carry dramatically different out-of-pocket, copays and payment percentages for the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Couldn’t agree more. I remember hearing Delta enacted something like this, but haven’t heard much more along these lines. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/102 "2021-10-29T16:08:35Z")
Yeah, I understand this sentiment. However, it becomes a very slippery slope. Do insurance companies get to start distinguishing between smokers and non-smokers? Fat and fit? Elderly and non-elderly (well, this already happens today since people over 65 are shunted over to Medicare and off commercial health insurance). How about if your genetic makeup or family history indicates a risk of cancer - can insurance companies draw a line there? Unfortunately, I think triaging vaccinated vs unvaccinated is going to happen real-time in the hallways of hospitals. It should not come to that, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/103 "2021-10-29T17:27:47Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > However, it becomes a very slippery slope. Do insurance companies get to start distinguishing between smokers and non-smokers? Fat and fit? … Well, life insurance factors in such things. Car and home insurance factor in past claims as evidence of behavior. I think I’ve heard of health insurance offering incentives for people to lose weight, quit smoking… Yeah - it can be tough when it gets to genetic predisposition and such, but I don’t understand why individuals ought to be able to make stupid, avoidable choices, and just impose the costs upon the general pool. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/104 "2021-10-29T17:34:47Z")
And that is the argument for universal health coverage - the largest risk pool spreads and minimizes the risk. But that is probably another discussion topic. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/105 "2021-10-29T17:35:20Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Do insurance companies get to start distinguishing between smokers and non-smokers? Absolutely. You say you’re not a smoker to get the lower rate and you come down with emphysema, they’re going to deny the claim; it’s then up to you to prove that you are not a smoker. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/106 "2021-10-29T17:46:23Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > Some people will say if it really was good for us, why would they have to bribe us? And if we weren’t, a lot of those same people would say that if we _really_ believed in it we would pay people to take it. Some people are looking for excuses, not reasons. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/107 "2021-10-29T20:59:29Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > My brother has left his long-time job as a firefighter and EMT because he didn’t want to get vaccinated as required. As far as I know, he was excellent at both jobs, and a model employee. He was Assistant Chief after under a decade and doing well. I am curious. Does he have children? Did he refuse to allow his children to be vaccinated for smallpox, polio, measles, diphtheria, whooping cough, etc.? We already _mandate_ that children be vaccinated to protect themselves and to protect others. I have seen no legitimate reason to stop such vaccination mandates just because the vaccinated population is of a different age. More than 700,000 deaths in just over a single year from a highly contagious disease–deaths demonstrably preventable by a vaccination argue for mandates _particularly_ for people working with the public. The resistance to the vaccine and the mandates has far more to do with Trumpist nonsense thanwith any reasonable objection. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/108 "2021-10-29T21:17:40Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Do insurance companies get to start distinguishing between smokers and non-smokers? Uh, [they’ve been doing so for years](https://www.healthmarkets.com/content/smoking-and-health-insurance). ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/109 "2021-10-29T21:25:49Z")
I accept the correction. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/110 "2021-10-29T21:42:18Z")
You’re most welcome! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/111 "2021-10-29T22:36:29Z")
> **[Supreme Court declines to block Maine health care employee vaccine mandate |...](https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/29/politics/maine-vaccine-mandate-supreme-court/index.html)** > > The Supreme Court on Friday denied a request to block a Maine rule that requires certain health care employees to be fully vaccinated against Covid-19. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/112 "2021-10-29T22:48:39Z")
100% for mandates. Yes, there are some medical exceptions - but those are really rare. I have one friend whose reaction to the second shot was so severe (she did not provide details) that her doctor told her not to get a booster. Anyone who is against a mandate is to young to remember smallpox or polio. I don’t know if there were any protests against having to get the smallpox vaccine; I get the impression that people were THRILLED when the polio vaccine finally came out. I’m old enough that I actually met someone who had been crippled by polio. In a very real sense, we’re now becoming victims of the wild success of those earlier efforts: nobody remembers just how life-destroying those diseases were. Somewhat amusing: my company has a vaccine requirement (either home-grown, or because we do a lot of Federal contracting and are thus required because of Federal rules). A month or so ago, the company came out with a method to upload your vaccination card and be flagged as fully vaccinated. I tried, the process didn’t work, and I forgot about it until a couple days ago, when I got a reminder email “you’re not on the list. Anyone who has not provided proof by December 8 will be placed on unpaid leave” (regardless of ability to telework). Luckily, they had fixed / simplified the process, and I’m now good to go. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/113 "2021-10-29T23:38:31Z")
Yeah, I had some trouble getting my QR code on the California state vaccine tracker site. What happened was I got my vaccine a year ago as part of the Moderna trial. In January I was “unblinded” and given a vaccine record card, but it was a little business card-sized thing, not the CDC card. It worked fine for bypassing the quarantine requirement on my trip to Hawaii in September, but when I tried to register with my state I got an error message and was waiting a long time to talk to someone about how to fix it. Finally, this month at a follow-up appointment for the study, I got the official CDC card, uploaded it, and got my QR code immediately. So I guess I have one minor reservation about mandates, which is that we need to be sure we devote sufficient human resources to the verification system so that people who are vaccinated but have some kind of technical difficulty don’t face harsh penalties while we get it sorted out. (For the record, I suffered no penalties for not having the QR code right away; I’ve been able to go everywhere and do everything I wanted to do with the original vax card I got in January.) ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2021, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/114 "2021-10-30T00:45:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Uh, isn’t that how the whole Federal COVID mandate is set up for businesses with more than 100 employees? Either get the jab or get weekly testing. Federal employees, government contractors, and healthcare workers don’t have the testing option. Are you sure about the last sentence? If so, good. Our university’s president has sent a couple of emails this month saying that as best that our lawyers can figure all university employees - including students in workstudy jobs - are to be considered government contractors when the OSHA rule goes into effect given our various contracts. If people can’t test weekly instead, all the better IMHO. Not that it’s many people anymore as students, faculty, and staff are all at 90% or better vaccinated now. And obviously, to answer the OP, I’m pro-mandate/pro bigger stick. We tried asking. We tried bribing. If we ever want the to get back to normal life without thousands dead of covid a month, we need mandates. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2021, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/115 "2021-10-30T00:47:10Z")
Interesting, it shows California is one of the few states that does not allow health insurance rates to be based on tobacco use. That explains why I’ve never been asked about that. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2021, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/116 "2021-10-30T00:51:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am curious. Does he have children? Did he refuse to allow his children to be vaccinated for smallpox, polio, measles, diphtheria, whooping cough, etc.? Nitpick: if **tofor** has minor nieces and nephews they’re definitely not vaccinated against smallpox. No American under the age of 50 has been vaccinated for smallpox (except some military folks). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/117 "2021-10-30T15:47:02Z")
Fair enough. Being well over 50, I think of smallpox as a standard vaccination. The others, however, are real and I stand by my original comments regarding the general nature of vaccinations. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2021, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/118 "2021-10-30T20:34:53Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Long before Covid-19, I endured a workplace mandate for vaccination (hospitals requiring annual flu shots). There were occasional holdouts/refusers back then, but comparatively few who defiantly tossed their careers down the drain rather than comply. Yeah, that is one thing that has always bugged me about this whole pushback – it’s not as if this is something completely unprecedented. _Something_ makes people see this as different. So yeah, the employer/business owner mandate, including government sector workforce AND public accommodations, I can be on board with that. If you can go work for someone else or take your business to another merchant, then just do so. If doing so is career-disrupting (employee) or a schlep (customer), then make your calculation of utility as to whether it’s worth it. The union aspect of it, ISTM that comes from of looking at it through the lens of the employer/labor dialectic and not wanting to establish a precedent that management can just impose such a requirement _without_ prior agreement with the labor side. ---
**Author:** ![SoToasty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sotoasty/32/2803_2.png) [@SoToasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoToasty)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2021, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/119 "2021-10-31T14:41:41Z")
100% for mandates. Every un-vaccinated dick head is a potential covid-19 mutation factory that could undo all the good that vaccines and mask mandates and social distancing have done. Due to these assholes, we could be right back at Dec 2019 any day now where anyone could get a new covid. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329/121 "2021-10-31T15:43:47Z")
> [@Raucous84](#): > > - If we’re vaccinated, why are we worried about the unvaccinated? What’s the real concern? Because some people (gasp) care about people in their world other than themselves and those close to them. Beause the unvaccinated-by-choice continue the threat to the unvaccinable. > [@](#): > > - Why is there such vitriol against the unvaccinated, many of whom are simply exercising their freedom of choice, the consequences of which they’ll have to deal with? Because others _ **do** _ have to deal with the consequences. Succesful control of a vaccinable disease requires relatively high levels of vaccinated population. I agree that there are too many instances of raging about it that do not help the discussion, but it does not mean there is not a reason people get angered by those “counterarguments”. > [@](#): > > - How do we know, for certain, that the mortalities presented are truly based on C-19 alone, and are not associated with other illnesses (I’ve been told by a medical doctor that there’s an apparent medical incentive for labeling mortalities as C-19) Oh, please. Not that canard about doctors being encouraged to label everythign CoVid. Stop it. If “a medical doctor” told you that I say demand proof or call him a quack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccine-mandates-are-you-for-or-against-and-why-do-you-have-the-stance-you-have/953329.md?page=7)