I agree this action is stupid. But one blind spot doesn’t make somebody overall stupid. That’s my point: Other than this one thing (certainly it’s a doozy) he was not bad at his job, but quite good. I do not think it’s right to paint all those losing their jobs over vaccination mandates as “the bad ones”. That’s one of the great mysteries here, that opposition to vaccination does not seem to correlate to general intelligence or ability.
To be clear, any health care workers who won’t get vaccinated should be immediately out on their ear. I’m not saying otherwise. I’m just saying that I don’t think there’s any evidence we’re eliminating the lowest quality workers in any field (lowest by other measures).
Is there any reasonable objecting to not getting the vaccine? Let me hear it, if not get vaccinated, if you can’t state a reasonable case (which aside for medical exemptions I have yet to hear) you are being harmful to liberties and freedom by being irresponsible with them, as liberty assumes the general public is in general more responsible than the government would be with that level of control. It’s best in the hands of the people. Being obviously so in the wrong here about the responsible use of liberty that causes such suffering and deaths demonstrates that the population can not be trusted with this liberty and it must fall to the government.
So anti-vax in this case is anti-freedom and asking the government to remove such a freedom. The people spouting anti-vax are being unknowingly manipulated into giving up some of our freedoms by their stance.
If I may, this ties into a larger problem that categorizing anti-vaxxers or -maskers as dumb is dangerous. Some of the “followers” may be dumb, but the leaders aren’t. Don’t underestimate them. Apologies if I’m preaching to the choir-it was just a passing thought.
I’m generally in agreement with this position. I certainly wouldn’t mandate vaccination for online shopping.
Long before Covid-19, I endured a workplace mandate for vaccination (hospitals requiring annual flu shots). There were occasional holdouts/refusers back then, but comparatively few who defiantly tossed their careers down the drain rather than comply.
I suspect it would be too much of a hijack to debate whether any one decision could be stupid enough to qualify an individual as stupid. Or evil enough to qualify one as evil…
At the least, this suggests the person is inclined to adopt a position which is contrary to voluminous evidence, which materially disadvantages him and his family, and which potentially adversely affects anyone he comes into contact with and society as a whole. I’d suggest that the fact that an individual is wiling to adopt such a position in this one instance, suggests they may be inclined to do so in other instances, and likely says something about their overall mental processes.
Covid has caused more economic disruption than almost anything in recent years. If there is a time for reasonable strong measures it is with Covid. There is a pandemic causing great morbidity and mortality and risks are minuscule. The vaccine clearly keeps people out of hospital and ICUs even though it is neither perfect nor future-proof. I think people who work closely with others require it. Should they not wish to do so, I am in favour of vaccine passports to get into crowded locations and regular testing at employee expense. I think dismissals should be a rarely used option, but the priority is to get people vaccinated by means as reasonable as possible.
I’m not sure where you’ve been, but lots of places have tried incentives (cash, beer, weed, lottery tickets, donuts). I don’t think they’re really any better vaxxed than places that haven’t done it.
Yeah, my employer literally gave us an extra week of paid vacation if we were vaccinated by the end of September, 3 days by the middle of October, and one day between then and last weekend.
Despite all that, we STILL have a vaccination rate that’s under about 60%. Had our governor not forbidden mandatory vaccinations for state or city workers, we’d have had a vaccine mandate for working, and I’d be willing to bet that the vast, vast majority would suck it up and get vaccinated lest they lose their jobs.
But without that stick, the carrots are apparently not enough. Even huge, sweet ones like a full extra week of vacation time.
I don’t think I buy this. Once all reasonable hurdles have been removed - no cost, readily available - I don’t think we need to spend money to persuade people to not be stunningly ignorant.
I believe a recent edition of Skeptical Inquirer suggested there are 3 classes of vaccines refusers. I forget their terms, but the were something like:
1 some somewhat reasonable reservations
2 kinda further towards the irrational end of the spectrum
3 full blown loony fact-deniers
They suggested efforts should be directed at folk in class 1, and possibly class 2, but the folk in class 3 are beyond reach.
I’m fine w/ ostracizing willing loonies. If they wish to forcibly revolt, we’ll see what needs to be done then. If they die as a result of their ignorance, no big loss.
We did try that and it was one of the most valuable rewards we could possibly offer, increased life expectancy. It wasn’t particularly effective at changing the minds of the remaining holdouts. So, back to the stick instead.
Plenty of rewards still being offered after appeals to caring for self and community didn’t work. Not that I got any rewards or incentives, because I damn well got vaccinated on my own, enjoying the “being alive” aspect of my life.
Well, the stick probably seems larger to those already hit by it. I was just wondering how well it has worked so far. From the briefing I got last week, the percentage of those who were going to quit or retire went from something like 20% potential to maybe 10%. Assuming that’s true and holds, then this would be empirical evidence that a stick works, at least nominally.
This thread was just me seeing where 'dopers fell on the for/against spectrum and maybe get some thoughts on the subject. So far it’s been pretty uniformly for, with some being a bit extreme about it than others.
Government: There will be a vaccine. It will be free. We’re asking everybody to get it so we can reopen the country and get COVID under control. Antivaxxers/Republicans (the party of “personal responsibility” LOL): It is poison! COVID is fake. It is just a bad flu. But … but … but … the economy!!! Government: Ok. We’ve not reached vaccine targets and COVID is continuing to disrupt society and the economy. So we’re going to institute mandates. Antivaxxers/Republicans: WHAT!?!? Mandates!!! But my FREEDOMS! Look, I would have taken it if the government had just asked. Government: sigh
I fall into the “bigger stick category.” I want all workplaces and all public accommodations to have mandates. I could probably be talked into making exceptions for things like a grocery store. Sticks do appear to work. I think a bigger stick would work better.
This is me. Mandate and enforce, then enforce some more.
And no, not exceptions for stores unless those asking to be the exception wear a mask correctly over their nose and mouth at all times, without lapses.
