# Vaccines, autism and big pharma **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 5, 2015, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046 "2015-08-05T08:34:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chikni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d26b3c/32.png) [@Chikni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chikni)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/1 "2015-08-05T08:34:19Z")
Discussing vaccines with a reasonably evidence oriented person the other day, I was surprised to hear them say “Yes, studies show no link between vaccines and autism, but you know who funded those? It was pharmaceutical companies!” Is there any work that reviews source of funding for vaccine studies and/or studies that are positively NOT funded by pharmaceuticals? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/2 "2015-08-05T08:46:53Z")
Your own premise is in error. The person you mention is not reasonably evidence oriented. You just discovered that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/3 "2015-08-05T09:20:10Z")
> [@Chikni](#): > > Discussing vaccines with a reasonably evidence oriented person the other day, I was surprised to hear them say “Yes, studies show no link between vaccines and autism, but you know who funded those? It was pharmaceutical companies!” Is there any work that reviews source of funding for vaccine studies and/or studies that are positively NOT funded by pharmaceuticals? I don’t know the answer to your question but the correct response is: \*"Do you know who funded the studies that found a link between vaccines and autism? Sorry, trick question! Ha ha! There are no such studies! I crack me up. So the only rational thing for me to do is take the evidence of the studies that show no link (suspect as you may believe those studies to be), because there is no evidence whatever of the contrary position."\* Of course this tactic won’t work, because any true anti vaxxer will probably rely on Wakefield’s study and suggest it was only ever discredited by dark forces manipulated by Big Pharma. There’s no way to win. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/4 "2015-08-05T12:07:38Z")
There are numerous studies supporting vaccine safety that are not funded by Big Pharma. For example (just pulled up a couple at random from [these](http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2014/03/75-studies-that-show-no-link-between.html) [sources](https://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf)): > **[v087p00493.pdf](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1755823/pdf/v087p00493.pdf)** [http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=190443](http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=190443) Vaccine makers _are_ required to conduct efficacy and safety studies before vaccines are approved. But it’s false that no independent investigators evaluate these parameters. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/5 "2015-08-05T13:55:13Z")
The person (and I use the term loosely) who alleged a link between vaccines and autism, Andrew Wakefield, was paid off by a group of lawyers to fake his results. His research has been officially retracted by _The Lancet_ due to this fraud, which is practically unheard-of, and Wakefield himself was stricken from the medical register, meaning he is effectively no longer a physician. Wakefield subjected children to unnecessary lumbar punctures and colonoscopies to further his fraud. He sold out for £400,000 from some lawyers who wanted to sue vaccine companies and he tortured those children to make his lies more believable. His work is directly responsible for a large and unprecedented increase in the amount of vaccine-preventable diseases, some of them resulting in deaths, and he _still_ has the temerity to continue to campaign against vaccines, even knowing it’s all a lie. So the next time your “evidence-oriented person” makes some hand-wavy reference to “Big Pharma”, hit them with some actual evidence. If they have any basic humanity, they’ll shut up, listen, and change their mind. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/6 "2015-08-05T15:00:53Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > The person (and I use the term loosely) who alleged a link between vaccines and autism, Andrew Wakefield, was paid off by a group of lawyers to fake his results. His research has been officially retracted by _The Lancet_ due to this fraud, which is practically unheard-of, and Wakefield himself was stricken from the medical register, meaning he is effectively no longer a physician. Nitpick: Wakefield was a paid expert witness for lawyers pursuing a class action suit against MMR manufacturers. We don’t know if they knew his results were bogus or not. At the time he initially signed on to the project, he was researching links between the measles virus itself and autism (as well as Crohn’s disease), not vaccine links. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/7 "2015-08-05T15:38:59Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > So the next time your “evidence-oriented person” makes some hand-wavy reference to “Big Pharma”, hit them with some actual evidence. If they have any basic humanity, they’ll shut up, listen, and change their mind. There’s actual evidence now that heavy metal ingestion by infants never causes harm? If you’ll recall, the mechanic for “vax’s cause autism” isn’t the active compounds, rather the preservative thiomersal (which contains mercury). A lot of things are suspected of causing autism, and I believe vaccines could be safer. Is there more than a strictly imaginary connection? Do we have any statistics? Adverse effects are known to be severe sometimes, what are the odds specifically? Leave autism out of the discussion for now, there’s far too much we _don’t_ know about it to make any broad statements about thiomersal’s roll, if any. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/8 "2015-08-05T15:53:12Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > There’s actual evidence now that heavy metal ingestion by infants never causes harm? bzzt. asking to prove a negative. > [@](#): > > If you’ll recall, the mechanic for “vax’s cause autism” isn’t the active compounds, rather the preservative thiomersal (which contains mercury). > > A lot of things are suspected of causing autism, and I believe vaccines could be safer. Is there more than a strictly imaginary connection? Do we have any statistics? Adverse effects are known to be severe sometimes, what are the odds specifically? > > Leave autism out of the discussion for now, there’s far too much we _don’t_ know about it to make any broad statements about thiomersal’s roll, if any. it’s this kind of baseless fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) which is convincing people to not vaccinate their children. you are demanding incontrovertible proof that everything is absolutely 100% safe for everybody in every possible condition, and that’s just plain unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/9 "2015-08-05T16:00:57Z")
I wish the mods could auto-forward OPs like this to the secret Kolga/LavenderBlue subforum (formerly: “The Barn”) so we could have them in one neat, tidy place. Or I wish we had a vaccine batsignal on the Dope to call them. Either would work. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/10 "2015-08-05T16:02:54Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > I wish the mods could auto-forward OPs like this to the secret Kolga/Lavender Blue subforum (formerly: “The Barn”) so we could have them in one neat, tidy place. > \*\* > Or I wish we had a vaccine batsignal on the Dope to call them. > \*\* > Either would work. Private message. I’ve done that a few times when a thread called for a specific Doper’s expertise. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/11 "2015-08-05T16:04:15Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Leave autism out of the discussion for now, there’s far too much we _don’t_ know about it to make any broad statements about thiomersal’s roll, if any. And this is complicated by the fact that the CDC deliberately misrepresented data from a Danish study on Thimerosal: > **[Scandal Exposed in Major Study of Autism and Mercury](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/scandal-exposed-in-major-study-of-autism-and-mercury-132519518.html)** > > /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The Coalition for Mercury-free Drugs (CoMeD) exposes communications between Centers for Disease Control (CDC) personnel and vaccine... > [@](#): > > Documents obtained via the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) show that CDC officials were aware of Danish data indicating a connection between removing Thimerosal (49.55% mercury) and a decline in autism rates. **Despite this knowledge, these officials allowed a 2003 article to be published in Pediatrics that excluded this information, misrepresented the decline as an increase** , and led to the mistaken conclusion that Thimerosal in vaccines does not cause autism. > > In Denmark, Thimerosal, a controversial mercury compound used as a preservative in certain vaccines, was removed from all Danish vaccines in 1992. The well-publicized Danish study published in Pediatrics 2003 claimed that autism rates actually increased after Thimerosal was phased out. This study subsequently became a cornerstone for the notion that mercury does not cause autism. However, one of the FOIA documents obtained from CDC clearly indicates that this study omitted large amounts of data showing autism rates actually dropping after mercury was removed from Danish vaccines. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/12 "2015-08-05T16:12:49Z")
One thing to maybe mention is that big pharma doesn’t actually make so much from vaccines. They would prefer you got sick and required expensive drugs. But their real payoff are in drugs that you take for the rest of your (hopefully long) life. I take two statins and two blood pressure drugs, for example and that is where they live. To be sure, occasionally a vaccination will have bad results. Rare, but they happen. I tried to find out the frequency, but all I could find was that they are rare. Hell, some people will react badly to distilled water. I was shocked to read yesterday that there were a couple dozen deaths among US children last year from diphtheria. Diphtheria! I think I may have been vaccinated against that 77 years ago. I also read that there were no cases at all of diphtheria between 2004 and 2008, before the current anti-vax craze really hit high gear. I feel a great sympathy for the kids, but none at all for their parents who are guilty of child abuse. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/13 "2015-08-05T16:53:59Z")
Of course there’s a conspiracy between Big Pharma and the Guv’ment. They’re vaccinating children so they don’t die of preventable childhood diseases and grow up to become adults who can pay income taxes. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/14 "2015-08-05T16:57:54Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > If you’ll recall, the mechanic for “vax’s cause autism” isn’t the active compounds, rather the preservative thiomersal (which contains mercury). Not really, the infamous Wakefield study dealt with the MMR vaccine, which has never contained thiomersal. > [@](#): > > Leave autism out of the discussion for now, there’s far too much we _don’t_ know about it to make any broad statements about thiomersal’s roll, if any. We know that thiomersal was removed (first in Denmark in the early 90s then in the US in the early 2000s) from childhood vaccines, and autism rates haven’t gone down. We can make the broad statement that autism doesn’t seem to be related to thiomersal. > [@Surreal](#): > > And this is complicated by the fact that the CDC deliberately misrepresented data from a Danish study on Thimerosal: > > [Scandal Exposed in Major Study of Autism and Mercury](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/scandal-exposed-in-major-study-of-autism-and-mercury-132519518.html) I’m not sure that a press release from a group called The Coalition for Mercury-free Drugs is a reliable source of info. From what I’ve seen from groups like that, they lie regularly. Got something else? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/15 "2015-08-05T17:31:52Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > There’s actual evidence now that heavy metal ingestion by infants never causes harm? If you’ll recall, the mechanic for “vax’s cause autism” isn’t the active compounds, rather the preservative thiomersal (which contains mercury). > > Leave autism out of the discussion for now, there’s far too much we _don’t_ know about it to make any broad statements about thiomersal’s roll, if any. Thimerosal did cause a few rare allergic reactions, etc. It’s gone (except in a few things that sit on the shelf a long time, such as anti-venom. But when you have rattlesnake venom coursing thru your body, you last worry is a mercury reaction. ) It _has_ saved many lives however, it could have prevented the serious adverse effects “such as the Staphylococcus infection that, in one 1928 incident, killed 12 of 21 children vaccinated with a diphtheria vaccine that lacked a preservative.” But it’s no longer really needed in modern Western medicine where we dont have to store the stuff for decades or improperly. So- it’s gone. Since there’s \*no connection at all \*between vaccines and autism, it’s unlikely there could be a connection between thimerosal and autism. But if there was, then we’d see a sharp drop when it was stopped. **Nothing of the sort has been seen**. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/16 "2015-08-05T19:32:57Z")
Hard to believe any sentient human is still arguing that thimerosal preservative caused autism. Just look at the United States. Thimerosal was removed from virtually all vaccines in 2001 (with the exception of inactivated flu vaccine in multidose vials), yet reported autism rates kept increasing. If thimerosal was the culprit, we’d have seen a huge decline in autism rates by now. Where is the big drop? Huh? This antivax argument [doesn’t work for Denmark either](http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2014/07/17/no-the-autism-prevalence-in-denmark-did-not-go-down-with-the-removal-of-thimerosal-again/). It’s a dead parrot. Please stop beating it. > [@Derleth](#): > > The person (and I use the term loosely) who alleged a link between vaccines and autism, Andrew Wakefield, was paid off by a group of lawyers to fake his results. Just one correction to this otherwise fine post: The lawyers group paid Wakefield a ton of money in hopes he’d come up with data permitting lucrative lawsuits against vaccine makers (which Wakefield failed to report to the Lancet as an obvious conflict of interest). I’ve seen no evidence that the lawyers encouraged him to commit fraud. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/17 "2015-08-05T19:39:48Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Just one correction to this otherwise fine post: The lawyers group **paid Wakefield a ton of money in hopes he’d come up with data permitting lucrative lawsuits against vaccine makers** (which Wakefield failed to report to the Lancet as an obvious conflict of interest). **I’ve seen no evidence that the lawyers encouraged him to commit fraud.** How do these not go together? And don’t forget he patented a competing vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/18 "2015-08-05T20:11:09Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Or I wish we had a vaccine batsignal on the Dope to call them. Okay, now I have the Batman theme as an earworm. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/19 "2015-08-05T22:29:44Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > And this is complicated by the fact that the CDC deliberately misrepresented data from a Danish study on Thimerosal: > > [Scandal Exposed in Major Study of Autism and Mercury](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/scandal-exposed-in-major-study-of-autism-and-mercury-132519518.html) You know that PRnewswire is a service that publishes things when you pay them to do so, right? ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/20 "2015-08-05T22:31:25Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > Okay, now I have the Batman theme as an earworm. Nuh nuh, nuh nuh, nuh nuh, nuh nuh, nuh nuh, nuh nuh, nuh nuh, nuh nuh, VAC-CINE! You’re welcome. 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046.md?page=2)