# Vaccines, autism and big pharma **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 5, 2015, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046 "2015-08-05T08:34:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/181 "2015-09-02T02:04:43Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > This won’t do **Chikni** any good though. The response will just be that Big Pharma has the government in its pocket through political donations and lobbyists, and so those doing the study make sure they achieve the “right” outcome because they know how to please their masters. You can’t win. And we can’t just dismiss this argument; large pharmaceutical companies do spend a lot on lobbying. However, I - perhaps naively - do not think they lobby congress to pressure agencies to allow them to manufacture low quality products that will kill off their potential customers before they are old enough to afford the really expensive drugs. Let’s be blunt - vaccines are old technology; the money is in Alzheimer’s and other degeneratives. Hmm, there is another source of information - whenever a government agency is going to promulgate a new regulation, they ask for comments to it in the Federal Register. And, oh yes, do medical products companies comment. If I stumble across anything persuasive, I’ll be back. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/182 "2015-09-02T22:32:06Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Let’s be blunt - vaccines are old technology Not so. There’s [a lot happening](http://www.imvacs.com/Novel-Vaccines/) that’s revolutionizing vaccine technology and applications. _“The urgent need to accelerate response time to emerging threats, make vaccines more widely available and ready for quick deployment, develop vaccines against difficult targets, and improve delivery systems for maximum potency have been the impetus behind many advances in vaccine technology. Synthetic vaccine candidates, genomic analysis of disease progression and vaccine response, structure-based antigen design, and novel nanoparticle delivery systems are just a few of the realizations of this effort.”_ New targets go beyond infectious diseases - i.e. cancer vaccines. > **[Developing therapeutic cancer vaccines - PMLiVE](https://pmlive.com/pharma_news/developing_therapeutic_cancer_vaccines_546378)** > > Dendreon’s success has paved the way for new candidates ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/183 "2015-09-03T01:02:34Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Not so. > > There’s [a lot happening](http://www.imvacs.com/Novel-Vaccines/) that’s revolutionizing vaccine technology and applications. > > _“The urgent need to accelerate response time to emerging threats, make vaccines more widely available and ready for quick deployment, develop vaccines against difficult targets, and improve delivery systems for maximum potency have been the impetus behind many advances in vaccine technology. Synthetic vaccine candidates, genomic analysis of disease progression and vaccine response, structure-based antigen design, and novel nanoparticle delivery systems are just a few of the realizations of this effort.”_ > > New targets go beyond infectious diseases - i.e. cancer vaccines. > > [http://www.pmlive.com/pharma\_news/developing\_therapeutic\_cancer\_vaccines\_546378](http://www.pmlive.com/pharma_news/developing_therapeutic_cancer_vaccines_546378) Pardon me: Vaccines **for common childhood diseases** are old technology. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/184 "2015-09-03T01:43:00Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Pardon me: > > Vaccines **for common childhood diseases** are old technology. Sorry, this statement is both inaccurate and misleading. It does not reflect new methods of delivery (already touched on) and production, as well as the use of newer adjuvants. Advances in genetic engineering, work on live recombinant and DNA vaccines and other developments are changing how we develop and use vaccines. > **[Advances in Vaccine Technology And Their Impact on Managed Care](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2730064/)** > > The discovery of vaccines has led to the near eradication of several important diseases and has had a tremendous impact on health for a relatively low cost. However, most vaccines in use today were developed by techniques that were pioneered more ... > **[The Future of Immunization](https://historyofvaccines.org/vaccines-101/future-immunization/)** > > The impact of vaccines over the past 200 years is evident, but challenges remain. Researchers are exploring new possibilities for vaccine development and delivery. One example of how new technology may help complete the eradication of a once-feared disease involves [polio vaccine](http://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2015/04/09/microneedle-patch-health-orig.cnn). Inducing a protective immune response in the body to a disease without the individual having to contract a full-blown illness is not a new concept. But it remains a cornerstone of preventive medicine. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/185 "2015-09-03T03:33:29Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Sorry, this statement is both inaccurate and misleading. It does not reflect new methods of delivery (already touched on) and production, as well as the use of newer adjuvants. Advances in genetic engineering, work on live recombinant and DNA vaccines and other developments are changing how we develop and use vaccines. > > [Advances in Vaccine Technology And Their Impact on Managed Care - PMC](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730064/) > [The Future of Immunization](http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/future-immunization) > > One example of how new technology may help complete the eradication of a once-feared disease involves [polio vaccine](http://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2015/04/09/microneedle-patch-health-orig.cnn). > > Inducing a protective immune response in the body to a disease without the individual having to contract a full-blown illness is not a new concept. But it remains a cornerstone of preventive medicine. How nice. Can you find a study for Chikni? I don’t have access to most of the journals. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/186 "2015-09-03T05:31:52Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That assumes I’m interested in trying to reason with anti-vaxers. I’m not. > > All I care about is stopping them from putting kids at risk by their anti-social behaviour. > > For example, they shouldn’t be able to send their kids to a public school without proof of vaccination. They can home-school, or set up a private school for unvaccinated kids. > > I don’t really care why they choose to put their own kids at risk, and I’m not interested in trying to argue them our of their irrational and anti-social behaviour. > > I just don’t want them putting my kid at risk. > > I feel sorry for their kids though. Who is putting their’s or any other kid at risk? An unvaccinated kid isnt a typhoid Mary. Besides if your kid is immunized against measles why are you worried if the next kid has the measles? A kid who’s running a temperature, sniffling and obviously has a cold is sick and yes should stay home so as to not spread it to other kids. A kid who’s just not vaccinated against the measles? No. I had both measles and chicken pox as a kid and I stayed home when I had it. Same as when I had the flu. No problem. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/187 "2015-09-03T05:34:01Z")
> [@j666](#): > > And we can’t just dismiss this argument; large pharmaceutical companies do spend a lot on lobbying. However, I - perhaps naively - do not think they lobby congress to pressure agencies to allow them to manufacture low quality products that will kill off their potential customers before they are old enough to afford the really expensive drugs. Let’s be blunt - vaccines are old technology; the money is in Alzheimer’s and other degeneratives. > > Hmm, there is another source of information - whenever a government agency is going to promulgate a new regulation, they ask for comments to it in the Federal Register. And, oh yes, do medical products companies comment. If I stumble across anything persuasive, I’ll be back. They also work hard to squash anyone who’s making a counter argument or just utters a word of caution. Just watch how people get flamed here. ---
**Author:** ![Crazier\_Catlady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Crazier\_Catlady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazier_Catlady)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/188 "2015-09-03T05:54:48Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Who is putting their’s or any other kid at risk? An unvaccinated kid isnt a typhoid Mary. Besides if your kid is immunized against measles why are you worried if the next kid has the measles? > > A kid who’s running a temperature, sniffling and obviously has a cold is sick and yes should stay home so as to not spread it to other kids. A kid who’s just not vaccinated against the measles? No. > > I had both measles and chicken pox as a kid and I stayed home when I had it. Same as when I had the flu. No problem. :smack: measles are contagious BEFORE you show symptoms. So yes, for a while an unvaccinated kid can indeed be a typhoid Mary. And vaccinations do not always work for every kid, so if I had any I would indeed be worried about the unvaccinated kid running around the playground. As would I be if I had an immunocompromised kid. I do believe this argument has been made countless times before? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/189 "2015-09-03T09:12:43Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Who is putting their’s or any other kid at risk? An unvaccinated kid isnt a typhoid Mary. Besides if your kid is immunized against measles why are you worried if the next kid has the measles? > > A kid who’s running a temperature, sniffling and obviously has a cold is sick and yes should stay home so as to not spread it to other kids. A kid who’s just not vaccinated against the measles? No. > > I had both measles and chicken pox as a kid and I stayed home when I had it. Same as when I had the flu. No problem. Did you also survive a childhood with no seat belts and ignore the benefits of wearing one? Reduced vaccination coverage for measles has brought a resurgence of the disease, some of those who get sick have been vaccinated, because the vaccination doesn’t give perfect protection, some of those being infected with a virus that was functionally eliminated from western countries have died as a result. These are very simple, basic facts that should be spread far and wide since they contribute to fighting ignorance. Your opinion is the diametrical opposite. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/190 "2015-09-03T09:17:01Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > They also work hard to squash anyone who’s making a counter argument or just utters a word of caution. Just watch how people get flamed here. People get flamed here for spouting ignorance. Big pharma has nothing to do with it. But some genuine knowledge, i.e. not the university of google, behind a counter argument or word of caution, and you’ll be flame proof. Not that there’s no risk of being flamed of course, but then you’ll have a genuine reason to complain about being gainsaid, instead of just using it in a fallacious way. “I’m right because I’m being persecuted.” is not logically sound. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/191 "2015-09-03T12:46:03Z")
The USA will be a test laboratory for the anti-vaxers-as we are inundated with children from 3rd world countries, many of them have never been vaccinated.I suspect an epidemic of childhood disease will become severe enough that even the diehards will want to get their kids immunized. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/192 "2015-09-03T12:55:22Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The USA will be a test laboratory for the anti-vaxers-as we are inundated with children from 3rd world countries, many of them have never been vaccinated.I suspect an epidemic of childhood disease will become severe enough that even the diehards will want to get their kids immunized. The _Texas Observer_ published [this](http://www.texasobserver.org/disease-threat-immigrant-children-wildly-overstated/)last summer: > [@](#): > > With thousands of children from Central America arriving at the U.S.-Mexico border, an old plague is once again sweeping the country—the fear of the diseased immigrant… > > Fox News commentator Cal Thomas asks, for example, if “the unaccompanied minors pouring over the border…have brought with them proof of vaccination?” Thomas accuses the border-crossers of harboring vaccine-preventable diseases such as “mumps, measles, rubella, polio, tetanus and diphtheria.” > > Before demonizing undocumented children, we should look at the facts: The vast majority of Central Americans are vaccinated against all these diseases. Governments concerned about health, and good parents investing in their kids, have made Central American kids better-vaccinated than Texan kids. We fear them not because they are actually sick, but because of powerful anti-immigration narratives that link foreigners to disease. Lots more facts & lots more history in the article. Unfortunately, many of our modern American unvaccinated or undervaccinated kids have well-off & somewhat well educated parents. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/193 "2015-09-03T13:38:55Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Just watch how people get flamed here. We’re here to fight ignorance. The vast majority of anti-vax postings here are pure, distilled ignorance and the facts are repeatedly posted to demonstrate that. Once anti-vax posters ignore the facts they are subject to being corrected. If that involves flames, well, it should. This is public health we’re talking about and people die as a result of this misinformation. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/194 "2015-09-03T14:57:43Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The USA will be a test laboratory for the anti-vaxers-as we are inundated with children from 3rd world countries, many of them have never been vaccinated.I suspect an epidemic of childhood disease will become severe enough that even the diehards will want to get their kids immunized. Bullshit. Polio wasn’t eliminated from Africa without vaccinating damn near everyone, as just one example. Both governments and NGO’s expend considerable effort and expense to vaccinate people in third world countries. The notion that people from poor countries don’t vaccinate is nonsense. Even if they didn’t get all their doses while abroad, more organizations exist to get their shots up to date after they arrive here. I’m not worried about immigrants, I worried about spoiled, rich parents who were born and raised here deciding their special snowflakes don’t need vaccinations. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/195 "2015-09-03T15:27:47Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > They also work hard to squash anyone who’s making a counter argument or just utters a word of caution. Just watch how people get flamed here. Anyone making a “counter argument”, “word of caution” or “anything persuasive” about vaccination that has facts and decent reasoning behind it will overwhelmingly get civil and evidence-based responses. Dumb arguments and memes repeated ad nauseum are likely to be swatted down not only with facts, but sometimes with accompanying snark. This is after all the Straight Dope, and not Mrs. Pritchard’s Academy For Gently Dealing With Cranks. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/196 "2015-09-03T15:46:26Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > This is after all the Straight Dope, and not Mrs. Pritchard’s Academy For Gently Dealing With Cranks. Although some of us have in fact graduated from that fine establishment, and try our best to follow its teachings when appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/197 "2015-09-03T16:37:19Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > They also work hard to squash anyone who’s making a counter argument or just utters a word of caution. Just watch how people get flamed here. You don’t want to get flamed? Here are some good answers to your questions so you don’t have to ask them again. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Who is putting their’s or any other kid at risk? An unvaccinated kid isnt a typhoid Mary. Besides if your kid is immunized against measles why are you worried if the next kid has the measles? Three doses of the measles vaccine are over 99 percent effective. HOWEVER, the measles vaccine is generally not given before a child is about a year and a half. You know why? Because the vaccine isn’t all that effective in children that young. Babies that young get some form of immunity from mommy. But this immunity wears off and the child is left vulnerable to measles. Measles sucks. Measles is one of the most contagious diseases on the damned planet. Your unvaccinated child walks into a room where measles was recently and they have a nine in ten chance of walking out with measles. A baby with measles is a baby that is at risk of all kinds of nasty complications. Not only that, but should the baby recover, the baby will then be at risk of a dreadful and utterly fatal complication of measles called SSPE. Some Germans made the dumbass decision to avoid the measles vaccine. They got dead German [kids](http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2011/11/another-sspe-case-angelina-is-dying.html) as a result. I think you understand that many of us would rather not have dead kids because of anti-vax stupidity. > [@](#): > > A kid who’s running a temperature, sniffling and obviously has a cold is sick and yes should stay home so as to not spread it to other kids. A kid who’s just not vaccinated against the measles? No. They damned well should stay home. Measles is that goddamned contagious and babies are that vulnerable. > [@](#): > > I had both measles and chicken pox as a kid and I stayed home when I had it. Same as when I had the flu. No problem. Bully for you. Other kids are not so damned lucky. Before the MMR vaccine in this country, we had fifty thousand hospitalizations each year and five hundred [dead](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/meas.html) kids. That’s an entire school full of kids lost each year. Even chicken pox can [kill](http://beforevaccines.blogspot.com/2013/06/when-good-die-young-how-chicken-pox.html). Vaccines are the cheapest, most effective means we have of preventing diseases and keeping our population healthy. Unless a doctor tell you otherwise, be grateful you can get the damned shot instead of the fucking disease. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/198 "2015-09-03T16:55:36Z")
One reason people may incorrectly think that childhood diseases aren’t dangerous is the large number of children’s novels in which children get them and recover with no lasting effects. I was going to do a Baker’s Dozen of this once, but decided the idea was too depressing. Examples: Arthur’s Chicken Pox by Marc Brown. On Your Toes, Susie! (Mumps) by Lee Wyndham. The Patchwork Quilt (Measles) by Adele de Leeuw. I’m an author, and I just sold a play in which the main character tells people that if they’re going to be around children, they should be up to date on their vaccines. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/199 "2015-09-03T19:18:32Z")
Why do people assume that because they survived a childhood illness without ill effects that every other child must have as well? “hey, we had Polio outbreaks and I was fine!!”’ “yeah, how about those kids who lived in iron lungs?” ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046/200 "2015-09-03T19:53:18Z")
Probably the same lunacy that lets them assume that an actual case of the measles is no big deal but attenuate that same virus, add a bit of harmless ingredients like water and you’ve got ebil pHARM company funded diseases at your fingertips. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaccines-autism-and-big-pharma/727046.md?page=11)