# Valedictorians and Jesus **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855 "2006-08-31T00:26:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/41 "2006-08-31T18:34:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And it seems to me that if it is estaqblished at the beginning of the school year (as it is) that THE best student will be able to share her thoughts about success and the future, I don’t how the school can be accused of favoring one religion over another. A Christian kid might earn the honor, a Muslim, Kid, a Buddhist, Jew, Atheist, whetever. And each of these kids might choose to mention her beliefs or not. It seems to be a matter of how important it was to them personally. I personally would hope that ALL mentions of faith be left out, but if someone believes that their success is due in large part to their faith, they should be able to be honest and state that fact. Who gets to decide who’s THE best, and on what grounds do they decide? Are you going to federally mandate that all valedictorians must be chosen based solely on GPA, which will be calculated thus-and-so? Or do you let the schools decide? The reason I ask is because my high school reworked the rules for valedictorian selection the year I graduated, in order to have two. They could easily have made another slight change (or changed the selection criteria entirely) and selected the person they wanted to be valedictorian, rather than the person who technically had the highest GPA. Instead, they chose to have a “joint valedictorian”. If they had gone they other route instead, I would have had no real objection, because in this particular instance I understood and agreed with their reasoning. However, if you allow schools to do an end-run around the “no prayer at official government/school events” by letting valedictorians say anything “they” want with no accountability, then you’re going to have some schools reworking the rules for choosing valedictorians in order to get the religious messages they want preached. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/42 "2006-08-31T18:34:20Z")
They should print it. It’s an interview with someone acting in a capacity as private citizen in an open forum for news and views. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/43 "2006-08-31T18:34:26Z")
Let’s not forget the Lemon Test: 1. The government’s action must have a legitimate secular purpose; 2. The government’s action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion; and 3. The government’s action must not result in an “excessive entanglement” of the government and religion. First, it’s highly questionable whether this is “government action” in the first place. But even if it is, I think it passes the Lemon Test easily. If the student attempted to prosyletize, then we’re treading on thin ice wrt the Lemon Test. But simply invoking a person deity wrt to one’s own accopmlishments-- I don’t see the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/44 "2006-08-31T18:36:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But that’s exactly the larger point: “in one’s life”. (emphasis mine) Therefore it is not the school make a religious proffession, but ONE individual. > > See above. A religious view that is being endorsed by an individual. A religious view which other innocent students are being forced to listen to as a condition for receiving their diplomas. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/45 "2006-08-31T18:37:49Z")
The only thing I remember about my college valedictorian is that her speech was boring and I could’ve done a lot better if only I’d, y’know, studied or something. Isn’t this an issue of somewhat overinflated importance? It’s like clowns at kids’ birthday parties; the kids don’t care but the parents _think_ they do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/46 "2006-08-31T18:42:49Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > A religious view which other innocent students are being forced to listen to as a condition for receiving their diplomas. So what? A history teacher decides that as part of a current events exercise, the class will listen the a State of the Union address from a US president. Must any references to God be bleeped out? ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/47 "2006-08-31T18:43:48Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If the student attempted to prosyletize, then we’re treading on thin ice wrt the Lemon Test. But simply invoking a person deity wrt to one’s own accopmlishments-- I don’t see the issue. Do you have a copy of the student’s intended speech? Because I haven’t seen one. Since the school had seen one, I’m willing to believe that they had a better idea than I do of what she was planning to say, and whether or not her speech crossed the line into prosyletization. What’s happened to your standard stance of “we can’t possibly judge this case because we don’t have all the facts and information”? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/48 "2006-08-31T18:45:30Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > A Valedictorian is speaking on behalf of the school at the behest of the school and so anything she says carries a tacit endorsement from the school. . Well, at least the world as back on its axis and you and I are on diferrent sides again. Whew. 😉 Are you of the mind that whatever she says is being tactily endorsed by the school? Nonsense. For example, would you ban any of the examples below? If not, do you maintain that because you wouldn’t ban them that Principal **Dio** is therefore endorsinig those views? “Take it from me, taliking to your cat for an hour every night will give you strength.” "Be true to yourself. Don’t listen to your parents, or your teachers. You know what’s best for you. “Man, I really didn’t expect to be up here. I know I have the highest GPA, but I just do good on tests. I had a great time, partying the whole time and barely studied. So, take it from me, have a good time and everything else will fall into place. Party at my house at seven.” > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > …and there’s really no difference in my mind betwen proselytizing and “thanking God.” Both kinds of religious speech are obnoxious if unsolicited and neither should have to be endured as a condition for receiving a diploma). Just because those two things might share a common denominator, that hardly makes them equivalent. I’m pretty sure you know this. That aside, the two things are worlds apart. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The bottom line is that when a Valedictorian makes a religious speech, then she (and by extension, the school) is making religion part of the ceremony. That’s not ok… Nope. They are making her speech part of the ceremony. What she says is up to her. They are supposed to be HER thoughts. THAT is the honor. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > One thing I think we might all be able to agree on is that all Valedictory speeches tend to be tedious and boring and that maybe we’d be better off dispensing with them entirely. Maybe. But I just don’t want to go back to agreeing with you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/49 "2006-08-31T18:48:40Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > Do you have a copy of the student’s intended speech? Because I haven’t seen one. Since the school had seen one, I’m willing to believe that they had a better idea than I do of what she was planning to say, and whether or not her speech crossed the line into prosyletization. What’s happened to your standard stance of “we can’t possibly judge this case because we don’t have all the facts and information”? Well, in that part I was speaking about the general issue, not this particular case. You’ll note that I also posted: > [@JM](#): > > However, I also don’t see why the school can’t, if it so chooses, restrict the speech to certain topics (ie, do not condone illegal behavior). If it wasn’t clear, let me state that I see no reason a school cannot, as it’s own policy, put religion as a topic that must be left out of such speeches. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/50 "2006-08-31T18:51:51Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > A religious view which other innocent students are being forced to listen to as a condition for receiving their diplomas. BTW, I’ve never heard of a school that required students to attend a graduation ceremony in order to receive a diploma. Do you have a cite for that claim? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/51 "2006-08-31T18:52:05Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > However, if you allow schools to do an end-run around the “no prayer at official government/school events” by letting valedictorians say anything “they” want with no accountability, then you’re going to have some schools reworking the rules for choosing valedictorians in order to get the religious messages they want preached. No one is talking about prayer. We’re talking about a speech, allowing someone to express the actual views she holds. A prayer would not/should not be allowed by a valedictorian as it is not on point. Please see my posts above. Regarding dual valedictorians. Dumb fucking idea. Another PC attempt to protect children from the real world. That said, if the school wants to have two of them, fine. As long as it is stated when the year begins. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/52 "2006-08-31T18:52:10Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > So what? A history teacher decides that as part of a current events exercise, the class will listen the a State of the Union address from a US president. Must any references to God be bleeped out? The President wouldn’t be speaking on behalf of the school as part of a school ceremony. making the speech _ceremonial_ is what I object to. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/53 "2006-08-31T18:54:33Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > A religious view which other innocent students are being forced to listen to as a condition for receiving their diplomas. Okay, that’s a different argument. Let’s concentrate on this first. Do you agree, based on the post you replied to, that it is NOT the school endorsing the statement, but only the individual? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/54 "2006-08-31T18:55:24Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > BTW, I’ve never heard of a school that required students to attend a graduation ceremony in order to receive a diploma. Do you have a cite for that claim? This is just a tad sophist. No, they don’t have to attend the ceremony to get their diploma (I didn’t go to mine), but that doesn’t mean that those who do choose to go to the ceremony should have to listen to religious speech as a condition of going. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/55 "2006-08-31T18:55:27Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The President wouldn’t be speaking on behalf of the school as part of a school ceremony. making the speech _ceremonial_ is what I object to. So, one can include references to God as part of the required curriculum, but not as part of an optional ceremony? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/56 "2006-08-31T18:57:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Okay, that’s a different argument. Let’s concentrate on this first. Do you agree, based on the post you replied to, that it is NOT the school endorsing the statement, but only the individual? No. I think the student is speaking as an agent of the school. I also think that the school has an obligation to control the ceremonial aspects of the proceedings so as to avoid any endorsements of religion. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/57 "2006-08-31T18:58:12Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Protestations about the student’s free speech rights are a red herring. That’s not what’s at issue. What’s at issue is what the _school_ is allowed to say and that includes people who are speaking as agents or representatives of the school. A Valedictorian is speaking on behalf of the school at the behest of the school and so anything she says carries a tacit endorsement from the school. Actually, I think it goes beyond even this. Does the school have the right to control what is and isn’t broadcast over their PA system during a school sponsored event? If the Val was invited to give a \<5 minute speech about her experiences(reviewed and approved) and began reading the telephone book instead, would the school have the right to turn off the microphone and ask her to step down? How about after the 30th minute? I say they do. Even if the speech isn’t religious, or vulgar, or disruptive, it’s the school’s event, and they have the right to tell a speaker that their time is done. All speakers are up there by invitation, on the expectation that you will follow the ground rules they setup. I don’t think it’s a violation of your constitutional rights to be invited to speak under a set of conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/58 "2006-08-31T18:59:16Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > So, one can include references to God as part of the required curriculum, but not as part of an optional ceremony? :dubious: As a matter of fact, that’s correct. The former does amount to an endorsement by the school. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/59 "2006-08-31T19:05:32Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > As a matter of fact, that’s correct. The former does amount to an endorsement by the school. In your mind. I would say just the opposite. I wish we had a poll asking this question to students: If the valedictorian makes a reference to God in his/her speech, do you see that as an endorsement of religion by the school? I think an overwhelming number of students would either say “no” or “I dunno, I’ll be listening to my iPod during the speech anyway”. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855/60 "2006-08-31T19:09:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Nope. They are making her speech part of the ceremony. What she says is up to her. They are supposed to be HER thoughts. THAT is the honor. You seem to have some bizarre theory that there is some sort of code of chivalious school behavior. I don’t think the school is a night at your roundtable. They arranged the event and invited the speakers. Why can’t they control the content of the event, including having a veto on anything any speakers say? Again, the issue rests on whether this was really an open forum in which case the school violated her rights, or whether it was concieved as a school controlled event, in which case, the obstruction of rights is far less obvious. You pretending there is some magical code of conduct to a proper valedictorian process doesn’t clarify anything useful in regards to that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-jesus/370855.md?page=4)