# Valedictorians and the people that suck them off **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 11, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034 "2003-06-11T03:41:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/21 "2003-06-11T12:28:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > **What about the other 150 people in the class? Did some of them not work their butts off while they were in school? Are none of them worthy of recognition? Sure they are, but since they don’t have the titles, they don’t get jack. It’s as if the only two students in the whole school are the people writing the speeches.** You make it sound like these two are somehow the only ones eligible for the academic awards, which I’m willing to guess is not the case. I’m with **SnoopyFan** and **MGibson** here. If the valedictorian and salutorian also happened to earn those awards, then they should get those awards. It’s great that your sister got into a good school with a full scholarship. But the fact that the school administration didn’t shine a spotlight on her for your benefit is no reason to begrudge two other people their own achievements. \*\* > [@](#): > > I’m sure I wasn’t the only one who saw this, and I certainly can’t be the only one that feels this way, that this obvious display of elitism sucks. \*\* “Elitism”??? WTF? Let’s get this straight: the people who earned the awards, got the awards and got the recognition for the awards. What should the school have done? Not give the awards to the people who earned them? Give them the awards, but tell them they can’t be recognized at graduation because that might hurt the other graduates feelings? Stop whining and go celebrate with your sister. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/22 "2003-06-11T12:28:55Z")
Granted, it’s been 30 years, but I have no idea who V & S were in my graduating class. I don’t remember any speeches. What I do remember is that our “diplomas” were pieces of white paper rolled up and tied with black and gold ribbons. That way, they didn’t have to worry about keeping the names straight for the 849 graduates. We got our real diplomas in leather folders through the mail. It would be interesting to see a study on what becomes of valedictorians after high school. How many become captains of industry and how many wind up drunk in a gutter somewhere… What’s sad to me are the people for whom high school was the pinnacle. Kinda like Al Bundy reliving his high school football glories. Glad I didn’t peak so young. Hope I peak eventually, or I’ll be too old to enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/23 "2003-06-11T12:33:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MsRobyn \* > \*\*The problem that I see with giving awards based solely on grades is that a grade isn’t necessarily an indicator of achievement or effort. If a student is good at a particular subject to begin with, the higher grade comes more easily because the work is easier. Some people put forth a tremendous amount of effort, and don’t make the same kind of grades. > > In any case, what’s wrong with recognizing a student for more than just grades? Why can’t a teacher recognize the student who may have gotten a lower average, but who showed a lot of interest and initiative in that subject, or a student who worked just as hard as the person with the highest average, even if the grade were lower? \*\* Because when the school tries to do that, they get sued - [What a stupid FUCK](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181413) (of course, the links in this thread don’t work anymore) ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/24 "2003-06-11T12:40:16Z")
My high school (where I was not valedictorian), had a V & S. They also recognized the top ten and top twenty graduates (my graduating class was 200). They also recongized anyone with perfect attendance for five or more years of school (one of my friends had perfect attendance for 12 years). They recognized the all-conference atheletes (who got way more attention than anyone who graduated with mere academic honors). Hell, I think by the end they’d recognized the kids who graduated via work/study at Wendy’s. My high school graduation speech was given by the class president - who was not honored for academics, but had been homecoming queen, winter princess, head cheerleader and most popular. So it certainly isn’t “inevitable” that the valedictorian is the class president. We had no tradition at our high school of the valedictorian making the speech. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/25 "2003-06-11T12:56:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Orbifold \* > \*\*You make it sound like these two are somehow the only ones eligible for the academic awards, which I’m willing to guess is not the case. > > I’m with **SnoopyFan** and **MGibson** here. If the valedictorian and salutorian also happened to earn those awards, then they should get those awards. It’s great that your sister got into a good school with a full scholarship. But the fact that the school administration didn’t shine a spotlight on her for your benefit is no reason to begrudge two other people their own achievements. > > \*\* > > “Elitism”??? WTF? Let’s get this straight: the people who earned the awards, got the awards and got the recognition for the awards. What should the school have done? Not give the awards to the people who earned them? Give them the awards, but tell them they can’t be recognized at graduation because that might hurt the other graduates feelings? > > Stop whining and go celebrate with your sister. \*\* Most of the awards given last night seemed to have subjective criteria. In fact, a lot of what was said about these kids sounded like self-fulfilling prophecy. They were expected to do well and get awards, and lo and behold, they did. I’m not trying to begrudge the success of the Val and Sal. They did work hard for what they accomplished. Airman’s and my beef is that the whole ceremony revolved around these two. There was little, if any, recognition of any other students, and an awful lot of recognition of these two. IMO, the school district should’ve toned that down by giving other students an opportunity to try out for the non-Salutatory speeches, and spread the awards around a little, or awarded them at Senior Night, when this kind of praise is expected. Robin ---
**Author:** ![NameAlreadyTaken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/97f17d/32.png) [@NameAlreadyTaken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NameAlreadyTaken)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/26 "2003-06-11T13:03:03Z")
During my freshman year of high school, the valedictorian gave his speech, left the building and drove to a rehab clinic to check himself in for cocaine abuse. Neither the school administration nor his parents had a clue that he gave the speech while high. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/27 "2003-06-11T13:07:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MsRobyn \* > **The problem that I see with giving awards based solely on grades is that a grade isn’t necessarily an indicator of achievement or effort.** “Grades are not an indicator of achievement”? What the hell do grades indicate if not achievement? As for effort: yes, grades are not an indicator of effort. But here’s the thing: just because something is easy doesn’t mean it wasn’t earned. A good term paper is still a good term paper even if it isn’t stained with sweat from the brow, and a bad term paper is still a bad term paper even if it’s a labour of love. > [@](#): > > **If a student is good at a particular subject to begin with, the higher grade comes more easily because the work is easier. Some people put forth a tremendous amount of effort, and don’t make the same kind of grades.** I’m sure their are short people who put in a tremendous effort at basketball, too. > [@](#): > > **In any case, what’s wrong with recognizing a student for more than just grades? Why can’t a teacher recognize the student who may have gotten a lower average, but who showed a lot of interest and initiative in that subject, or a student who worked just as hard as the person with the highest average, even if the grade were lower?** The fact that you mention “rude awakenings” in the next paragraph is particularly ironic. A student who gets an award based not on how well they _did_, but on how hard they _tried_, will be in for one hell of a rude awakening. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/28 "2003-06-11T13:11:53Z")
Didn’t see this post earlier… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MsRobyn \* > **IMO, the school district should’ve toned that down by giving other students an opportunity to try out for the non-Salutatory speeches…** This part I can heartily agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/29 "2003-06-11T13:21:34Z")
I went to school in the UK, where we didn’t have this system. There’s nothing standard across the country but at my school we had a series of awards for subjects, specific sports, or whatever some random alumni had donated a cup for. Then there were maybe 10 ‘academic achievement’ awards for people who didn’t fit in those catagories. In my year someone introduced a fairly big ‘scholarship’ (a couple of hundred quid iirc) for general achievement in the final year. I got it, but it was understood that I wouldn’t get the maths prize, because this award kind of trumped everything else. I wasn’t actually the best at everything else, but even if I had been, I assumed it was understood that it’d be stupid to have all the awards going to one person. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/30 "2003-06-11T13:27:26Z")
Heh Guess who **was** all of that. Valedictorian, class president, volleyball captain (the only sport we had), editor of the newspaper and lit magazine, the works. But I made just the one speech. 2 minutes and mostly a muffled, Bilbo-esque ‘thankyouverymuch’ type of thing. I concur that one speech per person regardless of the number of awards. But recognizing those who achieve in a competitive environment is a good thing, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/31 "2003-06-11T13:30:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Orbifold \* > \*\*“Grades are not an indicator of achievement”? What the hell do grades indicate if not achievement? > > As for effort: yes, grades are not an indicator of effort. But here’s the thing: just because something is easy doesn’t mean it wasn’t earned. A good term paper is still a good term paper even if it isn’t stained with sweat from the brow, and a bad term paper is still a bad term paper even if it’s a labour of love. \*\* Consider this. I happen to be a brilliant public speaker. (I’m not blowing my own horn here; I’ve gotten a lot of praise and accolades from just about every speech I’ve ever given.) I can sit down at a computer, spend maybe 20 minutes composing it, and knock everyone’s socks off with my delivery with little, if any, practice. The student who spends hours writing, re-writing, and practicing deserves to be recognized, even if his speech isn’t as good as mine. Why? Because I have a natural talent for public speaking, and the other student probably doesn’t. Or, take this one. You happen to be good at math. I’m not. It might take you fifteen minutes to complete a ten-question quiz on algebra. It might take me the whole hour. Unless my answers are so off the mark that it’s questionable I even opened the book, a pat on the head for effort would be nice. > [@](#): > > \*\*The fact that you mention “rude awakenings” in the next paragraph is particularly ironic. A student who gets an award based not on how well they _did_, but on how hard they _tried_, will be in for one hell of a rude awakening. \*\* Effort counts for a lot. Do you want to discourage the kid who busts his ass for the grades he got by telling him, “Nice try, kid, but your hard work doesn’t matter because all you got was C’s?” Why not institute an award for the most-improved student, at least? Robin ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/32 "2003-06-11T13:34:06Z")
Per **MsRobyn** , at my school, the valedictorian was one of those persons who was brilliant, everything came easy, had full scholarship to UNC. She gave the typical speech. She was typical preppy. Our Sal was one of those persons who was not as bright, had to work and scrape and suffer for every grade she got. She went to Emory. She was counter-culture, and gave the monologue from _Trainspotting_ as her speech. ((Imagine a shocked group of white, middle-class Southern parents politely, politely clapping. Hee.)) I thought it was a very nice, representational balance. Talent and effort both rewarded. Of course, it was raining, and we were outside, so graduation was mercifully short. And all the special awards (for chemistry, etc) were given out the night before. Both these girls were in a special magnet program, IB (like AP on steroids) and they had weighted GPAs. But they did attend _every_ required gym class. I’m sorry your sister didn’t get the recognition she deserved, **Airman**. Hopefully, in five years, her high school experience will be trumped by a life far more fabulous. That full scholarship (and probably some college course credits?) is worth far more than a speech. I have no idea what the V and S of my school are doing now, but I was a lazy, unrecognized, unpopular 13th (in a class of 512) and 6 years later I’m making more money than anyone I know my age, as a librarian (with a MLS), living the good life. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/33 "2003-06-11T13:37:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\*I know a Valedictorian personally, **dan**. My mother. And her standards have remained high her entire life. As a result she makes a good living. I have no doubt that Valedictorians as a group are more successful than your mid to low performing students. > > For some of those kids out there, though, this is it, as good as it’ll ever get. And all they get is a seat on the sidelines, they never really get into the game. It’s just sad. \*\* No disrespect intended. I don’t know any personally, but from my high school the ones who earned the disinction always struck me as the kind who might not do much else in life. Or maybe I was just hoping that was the case, you know? I never applied myself nearly as much as some of them seem to. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/34 "2003-06-11T13:53:20Z")
I was the salutatorian of my law school class. In high school, I was last in my class. Not bottom quarter. Last. Last place. I didn’t get to participate in graduation in high school because I didn’t have sufficient hours to graduate. I had to go to summer school and take home economics. Man, I hated high school. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/35 "2003-06-11T13:56:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Basically, it seems to me that the whole night was a gigantic suck-off of these people by the school administration. Well, why do you think they call it Magna cum? Lordy. ---
**Author:** ![Elza\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Elza\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elza_B)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/36 "2003-06-11T13:59:33Z")
Did anyone else’s high school not have the valedictorian and salutorian give speeches? I attended graduation all four years since I played in the band and we had to play for graduation, and our valedictorians and salutorians never gave speeches. We had the class president give a short speech and we always had a guest speaker, but those two never gave a speech. My senior year, we had some anger over the valedictorian and salutorian. Our GPAs were weighted, and apparently, both the valedictorian and the salutorian had the highest GPAs, but they never took any honors or AP courses. The people who took those courses and had slightly lower (I’m talking less than a tenth of a point) were upset because they said that their classes were worth more, so that should count. Ava ---
**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/37 "2003-06-11T14:00:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lieu \* > \*\*Well, why do you think they call it Magna cum? Lordy. \*\* No, it’s Magna Cum **Laude** , not Lordy. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/38 "2003-06-11T14:05:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by avabeth \* > \*\*My senior year, we had some anger over the valedictorian and salutorian. Our GPAs were weighted, and apparently, both the valedictorian and the salutorian had the highest GPAs, but they never took any honors or AP courses. The people who took those courses and had slightly lower (I’m talking less than a tenth of a point) were upset because they said that their classes were worth more, so that should count. \*\* I thought that AP classes were worth more anyway in terms of GPA. If you got an A in an AP class, you got a 5.0 instead of a 4.0 for that class, for example. Or am I mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![Brave\_Sir\_Robin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Brave\_Sir\_Robin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brave_Sir_Robin)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/39 "2003-06-11T14:13:08Z")
When I graduated from HS, the Valedectorian and Salutatorian didn’t win any of the academic awards. I was ranked 9th (out of 42 – big class!) and got the math and physics awards. 4th ranked got the English award. Of course, our school was one of the backwards ones that didn’t have the Amatuer Porn category. I’m not sure who would have won that one… ---
**Author:** ![Elza\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Elza\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elza_B)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034/40 "2003-06-11T14:21:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*I thought that AP classes were worth more anyway in terms of GPA. If you got an A in an AP class, you got a 5.0 instead of a 4.0 for that class, for example. Or am I mistaken? \*\* Yep, you’re right. But we also had a weighted system where we had + that were worth .5, too. So, somehow these two who didn’t take AP classes managed to get GPAs above those taking AP classes. I don’t remember how it worked out. But people were pissed. Parents even got into it. It was actually kind of silly. Ava [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valedictorians-and-the-people-that-suck-them-off/181034.md?page=3)