# Valid points made by villains **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 5, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579 "2013-12-05T16:05:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/1 "2013-12-05T16:05:42Z")
Example (from X-Men 2) [Mystique to Nightcrawler](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290334/quotes?item=qt0344210) Any others? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/2 "2013-12-05T17:05:27Z")
Can you tell us the point? Cuz I can’t watch videos at work. Oliver Platt in 2012 made the very valid point that all of humanity could not possibly fit on the spaceship, so of course they had to pick who could get on and who would be left behind. In fact, he was absolutley right and John Cusak almost got everybody killed sneaking on the ship and probably crippled it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/3 "2013-12-05T17:15:27Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Can you tell us the point? Cuz I can’t watch videos at work. > > Oliver Platt in 2012 made the very valid point that all of humanity could not possibly fit on the spaceship, so of course they had to pick who could get on and who would be left behind. In fact, he was absolutley right and John Cusak almost got everybody killed sneaking on the ship and probably crippled it anyway. It’s not a video. It’s a quote from IMDB. Nightcrawler: Excuse me? They say you can imitate anybody, even their voice. Mystique: [as Nightcrawler] Even their voice. Nightcrawler: Then why not stay in disguise all the time? You know, look like everyone else. Mystique: Because we shouldn’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/4 "2013-12-05T17:39:21Z")
From the X-Men series, you’ve got Senator Kelly. Sure, he’s portrayed as a villain but his views are not completely unreasonable. While the Marvel universe makes parallels between being a mutant and being Black or Jewish or gay, there’s a significant difference. Mutants have real superpowers and some individual mutants are genuine threats. And it’s not just a potential threat - the movies show that there are active mutant terrorist groups at work trying to overthrow the government and subjugate non-mutants. Kelly may be going overboard in his response but he’s fighting a real enemy. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/5 "2013-12-05T17:46:18Z")
Perhaps not a villain, but “Dickless” was right in in **Ghostbusters**. There is no excuse for having a spirit containment unit in the middle of New York City. Might as well have the Plum Island disease research facility relocated to Grand Central Station. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/6 "2013-12-05T17:48:10Z")
I’ve said this in a few times, but while Ozymandias in Watchman commits mass murder on a huge scale, he also appears to be right that humanity is getting closer and closer to nuclear annihilation and there’s no other obvious path away from that disaster. Of course it’s an open question if Ozzy himself prevents that catastrophe. He may have only given humanity a taste of the inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/7 "2013-12-05T18:02:11Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Can you tell us the point? Cuz I can’t watch videos at work. > > Oliver Platt in 2012 made the very valid point that all of humanity could not possibly fit on the spaceship, so of course they had to pick who could get on and who would be left behind. In fact, he was absolutley right and John Cusak almost got everybody killed sneaking on the ship and probably crippled it anyway. I actually started a thread on that exact topic _(that the supposed ‘heroes’ of that movie were complete doofus’ and Platts character was right)_. I don’t remember much of the movie but I do recall the scene where the Indian scientist _(I think)_ complains that the Chinese workers are going to be left behind, Platts character says if he’s that concerned he could always give them _his_ ticket. Of course he doesn’t and just looks smugly superior behind his back. If you’re a leader you have to make hard choices, thats one of the points of being a leader. > [@Marley23](#): > > I’ve said this in a few times, but while Ozymandias in Watchman commits mass murder on a huge scale, he also appears to be right that humanity is getting closer and closer to nuclear annihilation and there’s no other obvious path away from that disaster. Of course it’s an open question if Ozzy himself prevents that catastrophe. He may have only given humanity a taste of the inevitable. Ozymandias was an interesting character, there was one of the fake ads in the graphic novel that I thought was particularly interesting. It was one of those self-improvement schemes promoted by him, you got the impression that he really meant what he said, he genuinely wanted to help others improve themselves and took pleasure from helping them. It reminded me a quote, “A truly great person makes you believe that you to can be great.” btw where did the fact that he’s gay come from in the movie _(re the desktop icon on his Mac)_, I’m not sure why they added that or why they did it in the way they did. Making him a gay character, sure why not, but why in such a juvenile way? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/8 "2013-12-05T18:10:38Z")
There are several works I could name where the “bad” guy attempts to slaughter (or sterilize) most of humanity in the name of saving the planet. It may not be the best or most ethical solution, but the argument can certainly be made that it is a valid solution to a genuine problem. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/9 "2013-12-05T18:13:32Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Perhaps not a villain, but “Dickless” was right in in **Ghostbusters**. There is no excuse for having a spirit containment unit in the middle of New York City. Might as well have the Plum Island disease research facility relocated to Grand Central Station. I always felt that he had a valid point. If Venkman hadn’t been such a dick to him, they probably could have worked it all out. Eventually. Mr. EPA _was_ wrong, however, in shutting down the containment grid. Especially in light of the ConEd mans’ concerns. I mean, shutting down anything with the word “containment” in its name should be approached carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/10 "2013-12-05T18:21:31Z")
An oldie but a goodie is Shylock’s whole “If you prick us …” speech. > [@](#): > > He hath disgraced me and hindered me half a million, laughed at my losses, mocked at my gains, scorned my nation, thwarted my bargains, cooled my friends, heated mine enemies—and what’s his reason? I am a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/11 "2013-12-05T18:22:12Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Ozymandias was an interesting character, there was one of the fake ads in the graphic novel that I thought was particularly interesting. It was one of those self-improvement schemes promoted by him, you got the impression that he really meant what he said, he genuinely wanted to help others improve themselves and took pleasure from helping them. It reminded me a quote, “A truly great person makes you believe that you to can be great.” Yes, I think he really believed all of that. > [@](#): > > btw where did the fact that he’s gay come from in the movie _(re the desktop icon on his Mac)_, I’m not sure why they added that or why they did it in the way they did. Making him a gay character, sure why not, but why in such a juvenile way? I forget what they did in the movie, but in the comic Rorschach muses to himself that Ozymandias is a “possible homosexual.” We never find out why he thinks so, but I assumed Rorschach is just being judgmental and making assumptions because Ozzy is a well-groomed confirmed bachelor. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/12 "2013-12-05T18:25:40Z")
**DrFidelius** and **Hypno-Toad** are both right - we’re just lucky ‘Dickless’ didn’t know about the 4 unlicensed nuclear accelerators. 😉 > [@Disposable Hero](#): > > I don’t remember much of the movie but I do recall the scene where the Indian scientist _(I think)_ complains that the Chinese workers are going to be left behind, Platts character says if he’s that concerned he could always give them _his_ ticket. Of course he doesn’t and just looks smugly superior behind his back. > > If you’re a leader you have to make hard choices, thats one of the points of being a leader. I suppose so, but there’s something odious about preparing the ship with private cabins and champagne glasses when all that effort could have been spent making accommodations for more people and some way for people from other socioeconomic classes to survive (perhaps especially those who worked so hard to build the things.) ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/13 "2013-12-05T18:30:09Z")
Redcloak from **The Order of the Stick** is fighting to improve the lives of the goblin race, as they were created simply to be cannon fodder for PC races. Can’t say I agree with his methods, and he’s definitely evil, but he’s right that the system is unfair as presented, and I can see why he wants to change it. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/14 "2013-12-05T18:35:38Z")
Cactus Jack was a heel at ECW and was in a feud with fan favorite Tommy Dreamer. Jack, who was well known by then for wrestling some very hardcore matches, denounced the hardcore style, cut promos saying that he was doing it to save Dreamer, and outright refused to wrestle any style match with the exception of straight up scientific ones. I hadn’t watched any of the feud and I’ve only seen bits of ECW here and there, but I saw an interview with Mick Foley (aka Cactus Jack) years later and he talked about how he used that one nugget of truth as a heel and the fans really responded to it. > **[Mick Foley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Foley#Extreme_Championship_Wrestling.2C_Smokey_Mountain_Wrestling_and_Japan_.281994.E2.80.931996.29)** > > Michael Francis Foley (born June 7, 1965) is an American actor, author, color commentator, and retired professional wrestler. He is currently signed to WWE, under the company's "Legends" program, acting as a company ambassador. > Foley worked for many wrestling promotions, including the World Wrestling Federation (WWF, now WWE), World Championship Wrestling (WCW), Extreme Championship Wrestling (ECW), Total Nonstop Action Wrestling (TNA) (now Impact Wrestling), and National Wrestling Alliance (N... Found a link that talks about this feud. Caution, link contains Bleacher Report-like substances: [Forgotten History: Mick Foley Denounces Hardcore in ECW | News, Scores, Highlights, Stats, and Rumors | Bleacher Report](http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1163020-forgotten-history-mick-foley-denounces-hardcore-in-ecw) ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/15 "2013-12-05T19:12:41Z")
“…all the Who girls and boys would wake bright and early and rush for their toys. And then, oh the noise, oh the noise, noise, noise, noise. That’s one thing he hated, the noise, noise, noise noise.” I always set the book down at that point, turned to my kids and said, “Really, the Grinch has a point here.” ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/16 "2013-12-05T19:20:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > From the X-Men series, you’ve got Senator Kelly. Sure, he’s portrayed as a villain but his views are not completely unreasonable. > > While the Marvel universe makes parallels between being a mutant and being Black or Jewish or gay, there’s a significant difference. Mutants have real superpowers and some individual mutants are genuine threats. And it’s not just a potential threat - the movies show that there are active mutant terrorist groups at work trying to overthrow the government and subjugate non-mutants. Kelly may be going overboard in his response but he’s fighting a real enemy. I always thought both villains made sense. Of course mutants should be regulated. They’re a huge threat. Of course mutants and humans can’t coexist. Humans will never trust mutants and will attack. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/17 "2013-12-05T19:36:25Z")
I thought Ed Harris’ motivation in [The Rock](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rock_(film)) was pretty reasonable: > [@](#): > > Hummel threatens to launch the stolen rockets against the population of San Francisco unless the government pays them $100 million from a military slush fund containing money from illegal arms sales, which he will distribute to his troops and the families of Recon Marines who died on clandestine missions under his command and whose deaths were not compensated: “These men died for their country, and they weren’t even given a goddamn military burial. The situation is unacceptable.” Especially after it was revealed that it was all a bluff and he had no intention of actually harming innocent civillians. ---
**Author:** ![ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chockfullofheadygoodness/32/511_2.png) [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/18 "2013-12-05T21:10:03Z")
Count Dooku was absolutely correct that the Republic was corrupt and the Jedi Council was too rigid and complacent to do anything about it. The Separatists had every right to secede. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/19 "2013-12-05T21:12:32Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > There are several works I could name where the “bad” guy attempts to slaughter (or sterilize) most of humanity in the name of saving the planet. It may not be the best or most ethical solution, but the argument can certainly be made that it is a valid solution to a genuine problem. I don’t think you need quote marks around the word bad in that sentence. Killing off or sterilising a few billion people is evil no matter how you cut it. > [@Marley23](#): > > I forget what they did in the movie, but in the comic Rorschach muses to himself that Ozymandias is a “possible homosexual.” We never find out why he thinks so, but I assumed Rorschach is just being judgmental and making assumptions because Ozzy is a well-groomed confirmed bachelor. I think it was the way they did it that annoyed me it was (a) unneccessary and didn’t really add anything to the character as presented up to that point and (b) done in a juvenile sniggering way, looking at secret personal files on his computer. > [@wevets](#): > > I suppose so, but there’s something odious about preparing the ship with private cabins and champagne glasses when all that effort could have been spent making accommodations for more people and some way for people from other socioeconomic classes to survive (perhaps especially those who worked so hard to build the things.) True, but its not the time to contest all that just before the disaster hits. By that point its set in stone as unfair as it is and messing with it is just going to get _everyone_ killed. Anyway just think of how much fun it’ll be for the social elites a few months/years after the disaster when they’re back to a hunter/gatherer lifestyle. They’d probably eat each other. > [@Morbo](#): > > I thought Ed Harris’ motivation in [The Rock](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rock_(film)) was pretty reasonable: > > Especially after it was revealed that it was all a bluff and he had no intention of actually harming innocent civillians. There’s an interesting extra on a DVD I watched of that movie showing Ed Harris getting increasingly frustrated as he flubbed his lines during several attempts at shooting that particular speech. I always thought of him as a pretty cool and easy-going guy…not then! ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/20 "2013-12-05T21:19:58Z")
> [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](#): > > Count Dooku was absolutely correct that the Republic was corrupt and the Jedi Council was too rigid and complacent to do anything about it. The Separatists had every right to secede. This strikes me as hollow bullshit rationalizations, seeing as how he became the apprentice of the evil overlord secretly running the republic! If Dooku wasn’t working for Palpatine but working against both him and the jedi, I’d be more willing to listen. Captain Rhodes in Day Of The Dead should have executed “Frankenstein” and all his experiments and fled the bomb shelter long before the events of the movie. Once Sarah and the other science hippys learn the truth and hopelessness of their mission she should go and inform Rhodes, instead she literally plans to leave them to their certain death by stealing the helicopter. The movie asks us to agree with Sarah, and hate Rhodes and the other military guys JUST BECAUSE they are military! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579.md?page=2)