# Valid points made by villains **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 5, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579 "2013-12-05T16:05:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/61 "2013-12-06T19:27:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > In fairness to Ben, i don’t think you can pin “unlocking the pump via shotgun” on him. Even the best laid plans will come up short when executed by idiots. That, and wasn’t Harry advocating that they lock themselves in the basement with _their sick and/or bitten daughter_? That’s how he and his wife died, isn’t it? Daughter died, reanimated, and killed them both (or at least the mother)? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/62 "2013-12-06T20:52:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > In fairness to Ben, i don’t think you can pin “unlocking the pump via shotgun” on him. Even the best laid plans will come up short when executed by idiots. Ben was the one who shot the lock off. Someone else (the man that went with him) sloshed gas around, which was the proximal cause, but Ben’s \*plan \*involved shooting the lock off, and keeping [del]zombies[/del] the ghouls at bay with torches while pumping gas. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/63 "2013-12-06T21:12:56Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Roy Batty from **Blade Runner**. All he wanted was to be treated like a person, live a full life, and not die at four years old. The replicants do some awful things in that movie, but people are capable of pretty awful things when their back is against the wall. Even more so when they’re _born_ with their back against the wall. I want more explanation, ffffff… ather. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/64 "2013-12-06T22:33:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I can also get behind basically anything Magneto said in X-Men: First Class. > > In fact, there’s a theory I’ve heard that the entire movie is actually about modern Judaism, with Professor X representing the American Jewish community, and Magneto representing Israel. I thought they did Magento very well in “First Class”. I saw just about everything he did, as being justified. ---
**Author:** ![TheBoltEater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheBoltEater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheBoltEater)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/65 "2013-12-07T00:08:31Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > No, actually it wasn’t. Wow, great point. You really got me there. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/66 "2013-12-07T00:18:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Sherrerd > So I’m thinking this question makes sense only for plots in which the antagonist has some political or social-change goal.\* > > By contrast, plots in which the antagonist is motivated by greed are automatically ones in which the villain has a “valid point”—Hans Gruber really DOES want that money. As do Mr. Potter and Harry Lime. Gordon Gekko might be considered to be in the Political/Social Change camp because of his famous speech—but in reality he was simply justifying his actions. He wasn’t setting out to change the world. > [@Steve\_MB](#): > > I don’t think that simple greed constitutes a “valid point” for villains whose agenda is to enrich themselves without regard for ethical constraints. By this logic, the desire to placate their insane compulsions would constitute a “valid point” for villains who are just nucking futz, which you expressly reject: Right, I could have worded that more clearly. If you look at my first sentence, I was saying (basically) that both the Greedy Villain and the Nutso Villain are alike in not being part of the phenomenon of _Villain Argues For Particular Policies/Social Changes/New Practices/Reforms…And Has a Good Point_. I took the latter to be the category for which we seek examples. My point was that many famous villains wouldn’t even be in the running for our list, because they weren’t _trying_ to make valid points. For the Greedy Villain, ‘getting the money’ seems to him to be a perfectly valid motivation–but he (or she) is not trying to argue for a Policy or Social Change (as do Magneto and Ozymandias, possibly the two best examples discussed so far). For the Nutso Villain, ‘getting the jollies’ may seem to him (or her) to be valid, but again, there is no argument being made to change a social policy, practice, or institution. So, yeah. But there is often a great deal of overlap between the Changes/Policies the villain argues for, and the villain’s own self-interest. And the self-interest muddies the validity of the point (or so I’d argue!) Magneto, for example, would personally benefit from being leader of the group that subjugates humanity and rules in our stead. Eleanor Iselin (the mother of The Manchurian Candidate’s Raymond Shaw) seems to genuinely believe in Communist ideals, and argues for them–but she would herself rise to power (herself or through her husband, depending on the version). Various Sith argue for the benefits of their philosophy, while enjoying the use of power. Minnie and Roman Castevet proselytize for their beliefs, too, but the more people they convince, the greater their own importance and the higher their own personal status within their group. Possibly the only really selfless Point was made by Ozymandias. I guess you could say he’d benefit (if the people of the world united against nuclear weaponry) by being able to live on a world that wouldn’t be annihilated. But that’s not really comparable to the benefits of power and status that would accrue to those villains listed above, if they managed to carry their own points (whether valid or not). ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/67 "2013-12-07T02:00:02Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > So I’m thinking this question makes sense only for plots in which the antagonist has some political or social-change goal.\* I wasn’t necessarily looking for examples where the villain’s over goal is justifiable. Like the example I gave, it could just be a statement that the hero (or the audience) might agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/68 "2013-12-07T02:04:51Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > **28 Weeks Later** : > > The story goes like this (spoilers!) - The eeeeevil U.S. army general issues orders that anyone seen breaking out of the re-settlement camp should be shot on sight. Robert Carlisle’s kids get homesick and sneak out of the camps to visit their old flat. A patrol guard sees them and says (paraphrasing) “Awww…they’re just a couple of widdle kids! I couldn’t shoot _them._” > > The kids discover their mother who was presumably killed and eaten by rage-virus ‘not-zombies.’ Army troops then arrive to take the kids back to the camp. Somebody suggests shooting the mother, but…not in front of the kids, man. And look at her - she’s totally not a raging not-zombie. > > Back at the re-settlement camp, the heroice brave, noble scientist / doctor woman detects the rage virus in the mother, and the eeeeevil U.S. army general wants her killed immediately. The heroic scientist / doctor woman argues that she has a natural immunity to the effects of the virus. Studying her may present an opportunity to create an antidote for the rage syndrome. No dice says the eeeeevil U.S. army general, kill her at once! Even if she is immune to the virus, she could possibly INFECT OTHER PEOPLE. (What an asshole! Right??) > > Anyway, while they are arguing, Robert Carlisle drops in on his wife (in her quarantine isolation cell) and gets himself infected with rage. He promptly kills his wife and then proceeds to run around the camp attacking people and spreading the virus. Hundreds of people are dying; the camp is in chaos. The eeeeevil U.S. army general then orders all the civilians in the camp eliminated. (Man! How much of an asshole can he possibly be??) > > Anyway, a pair of good guy soldiers (man and woman) get the kids out of the camp and an extended chase scene takes place in which they try to outrun both rage virus not-zombies AND clouds of poison gas dispersed by the eeeeeevil U.S. army. (What assholes!!!) > > The kids get separated from the soldiers and stumble around for a while, and the boy gets bitten by a rage virus not-zombie. “Am I infected?” asks the little boy in a quivering voice, “Do I have to be killed now?” His sister assures him that “No, you’re fine.” (Even though she can see the tell-tale sign of the eyes clouding over.) > > The woman soldier finds the kids and gets them to a helicopter landing point. The helicopter pilot is wary of taking two kids along with them, out of the county to France. He’d rather abandon the two kids to a wasteland full of not-zombies and poison gas rather than possibly spread contagion to the continent. (What a jerk!) But the woman soldier assures her that the kids are fine, and taking them away from there is the humane thing to do to save these kids. > > The very last scene of the film shows the wreckage of the helicopter - in France. The helicopter pilot and soldier who took the kids with them (despite quarantine regulations) have been infected with the rage virus by the little boy, and now the rage virus has spread to mainland Europe and quite possibly to all of Euro-Asia. > > All of which could have been avoided if the one officer on patrol obeyed the orders of the eeeeevil U.S. army general and shot the kids on sight when they snuck out of the camp! This film is almost the flipside of the “enemy of us is our selfishness” trope you usually see in zombie movies - in _every_ instance where a character shows compassion towards another, it ends up badly. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/69 "2013-12-07T02:22:23Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Possibly the only really selfless Point was made by Ozymandias. I guess you could say he’d benefit (if the people of the world united against nuclear weaponry) by being able to live on a world that wouldn’t be annihilated. But that’s not really comparable to the benefits of power and status that would accrue to those villains listed above, if they managed to carry their own points (whether valid or not). At that, look at everyone’s responses when he’s made his case: Dan and Laurie and Jon grudgingly admit he’s apparently right, just like Ed must’ve, but Rorschach… …actually, Rorschach seems to agree about the _ **facts** _; he doesn’t dispute that it’s a choice between armageddon and compromise; he just genuinely prefers the idea of everyone dying, with them crying out _“save us”_ while he whispers _“no.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/70 "2013-12-07T02:44:01Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > At that, look at everyone’s responses when he’s made his case: Dan and Laurie and Jon grudgingly admit he’s apparently right, just like Ed must’ve, but Rorschach… > > …actually, Rorschach seems to agree about the _ **facts** _; he doesn’t dispute that it’s a choice between armageddon and compromise; he just genuinely prefers the idea of everyone dying, with them crying out _“save us”_ while he whispers _“no.”_ He would rather die than be complicit in Ozymandias’s mass murder. And frankly, the threat of Armageddon only exists because of men like Ozymandias. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/71 "2013-12-07T03:49:44Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I want more explanation, ffffff… ather. The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long. And you have burned so very, very brightly, Roy. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/72 "2013-12-07T04:08:02Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Possibly the only really selfless Point was made by Ozymandias. I guess you could say he’d benefit (if the people of the world united against nuclear weaponry) by being able to live on a world that wouldn’t be annihilated. But that’s not really comparable to the benefits of power and status that would accrue to those villains listed above, if they managed to carry their own points (whether valid or not). No, there’s more to it than that. He plans to be one of the leaders of this new world: “I saved Earth from Hell. Next I’ll help her towards utopia.” The old order was too set in its ways to take his advice, but he’s changed things. And he’s going to keep making money; unlike everyone else in the world, he knew what was coming and has already adapted his business empire. So there’s plenty in it for him beyond survival, but even if you take a dimmer view of Ozzy than I do, I think you’d agree he’s not motivated by love of power and money. Arrogant as it is, he really does believe this is what needs to be done on behalf of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/73 "2013-12-07T04:24:05Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > At that, look at everyone’s responses when he’s made his case: Dan and Laurie and Jon grudgingly admit he’s apparently right, just like Ed must’ve, but Rorschach… > > …actually, Rorschach seems to agree about the _ **facts** _; he doesn’t dispute that it’s a choice between armageddon and compromise; he just genuinely prefers the idea of everyone dying, with them crying out _“save us”_ while he whispers _“no.”_ > [@Grumman](#): > > He would rather die than be complicit in Ozymandias’s mass murder. And frankly, the threat of Armageddon only exists because of men like Ozymandias. Ozymandias’ argument was essentially that it was morally acceptable to kill a million people in order to save a billion. Rorschach’s argument was that killing a million people was immoral regardless of what your reason was. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/74 "2013-12-07T05:07:59Z")
How about Doyle Lonnegan in _The Sting_? Johnny and Luther did steal from one of his runners. He had a legitimate grievance to seek revenge for when he killed Luther, and to discourage anyone else from thinking he was weak and they could move in on his territory. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/75 "2013-12-07T06:24:46Z")
Vito Corleone, in _The Godfather:_ To Sollozzo: > [@](#): > > I said that I would see you because I had heard that you were a serious man, to be treated with respect. But I must say no to you, and let me give you my reasons. It’s true I have a lot of friends in politics, but they wouldn’t be so friendly if they knew my business was drugs instead of gambling, which they consider a harmless vice. But drugs, that’s a dirty business. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/76 "2013-12-07T06:29:43Z")
I was always bothered by _Foul Play_, where the bad guys were the Tax the Churches foundation. I mean, killing the Pope to make your point is foolish and counterproductive, but taxing churches is considered by many a laudable idea. So, I guess the bad guys were bad because they were about to do a disservice to their cause, which may have been a good one. Damn, I need a pretzel. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/77 "2013-12-07T10:39:05Z")
The older I get, the more sympathy I have for Dean Wormer in _Animal House._ “Fat, drunk, and stupid, is no way to go through life.” OK, the crack about fatness was over the line, but he was right about drunkenness and stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/78 "2013-12-07T11:19:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Ozymandias’ argument was essentially that it was morally acceptable to kill a million people in order to save a billion. Rorschach’s argument was that killing a million people was immoral regardless of what your reason was. I thought his main problem with what had been done was that they had to and intended to keep what had happened secret. Rorschach couldn’t accept that. I don’t think Rorschach had any particular moral compunction about killing people, even that many people. > [@Marley23](#): > > No, there’s more to it than that. He plans to be one of the leaders of this new world: “I saved Earth from Hell. Next I’ll help her towards utopia.” The old order was too set in its ways to take his advice, but he’s changed things. And he’s going to keep making money; unlike everyone else in the world, he knew what was coming and has already adapted his business empire. So there’s plenty in it for him beyond survival, but even if you take a dimmer view of Ozzy than I do, I think you’d agree he’s not motivated by love of power and money. Arrogant as it is, he really does believe this is what needs to be done on behalf of humanity. Ozymandias was definitely arrogant but I felt he genuinely wanted to help the common person, he wanted to lift everyone up. If he had done it was his argument then _anyone_ could do it. In most ways he was a truly admirable figure. > [@Grumman](#): > > He would rather die than be complicit in Ozymandias’s mass murder. And frankly, the threat of Armageddon only exists because of men like Ozymandias. In what way? Sure he was rich, powerful and influential but he tried to use that power to help people as he saw it. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/79 "2013-12-07T12:23:28Z")
> [@TheBoltEater](#): > > Wow, great point. You really got me there. I gave as detailed of a counter-argument as you gave an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579/80 "2013-12-07T14:20:56Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The Mad Monk in then **Doctor Who** episode, “The Time Meddler.” He was trying to change history to advance civilization; one of his goals was to have the original production of Shakespeare’s plays on TV. The Doctor’s reason for stopping him was “you don’t meddle with time.” > > As Count Scarloni said many years later, “Isn’t that what you do?” You reminded me of another “Who” related one - “The Tenth Planet.” The Cybermen have taken over an Antarctic outpost as stage one of invading the Earth. However two Cybermen have been trapped in a situation in which they are slowly dying. The Cyber-Leader deems them expendable as they have accomplished their mission and it would require some risk to get them out. When Polly questions how the Cyber-Leader’s can be so callous, allowing his own people to suffer and die like that, he retorts that: “There are suffering and dying members of your race all over your world, but you do not care.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valid-points-made-by-villains/675579.md?page=5)