# Valley of the Little Shits **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 11, 2002, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812 "2002-10-11T12:58:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/21 "2002-10-11T14:17:41Z")
Every time someone complains about bad behaviour from kids in these threads, it is a very short time before someone comes along defending the kids and acting like the OP is an insensitive barbarian who shouldn’t be allowed in decent company for even _suggesting_ that kids are anything less than God’s Little Angels Here On Earth. This really chaps my ass. Where did we as a society start to embrace the idea that kids are to be held to no standards whatsoever when it comes to public behaviour? When did North American parents abdicate all responsibility for raising children that would interact in public without leaving a trail of annoyed, irritated adults behind? The pat answer that some posters inevitably trot out - “They’re just children - it’s not their fault” cuts no ice with me. They’re children that should be raised to interact in a society that is getting more crowded, where polite interactions are becoming more and more critical so that we don’t all go off the deep end and start shooting each other. ---
**Author:** ![Delta-9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@Delta-9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delta-9)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/22 "2002-10-11T14:20:55Z")
Ahh, nothing like a good “whoosh” first thing in the mornin’. . . At least it wasn’t me this time. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/23 "2002-10-11T14:28:14Z")
I’m gonna step in here with an observation: Here in Seoul, the Korean kids on the subway are appropriately obnoxious. They are loud, they run up and down, etc. But they behave as you would expect children to behave! When one of them or a group of them cross the line into TOO much obnoxiosity (when that word appears in Webster’s, I want credit, dammit!), the nearest adult will rebuke them. And they will settle down a bit… However, when I sometimes see a group of American children on the subway (military children, sometimes accompanied by an adult, sometimes not), they are behaving FAR worse than their Korean counterparts. Much more obnoxious! If they are accompanied by an adult, I rarely see the adult try to take control of the children, unless he/she is a parent of one of them. May be a cultural thing. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/24 "2002-10-11T14:33:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor \* > **If the rules of your rail system are not enforced _by the employees_, then the rules will be broken. By adults & kids alike. > I’m sure you can find plenty of people of all ages who break these rules.** I’m sure I can’t. I’m dumping on the kids **because they’re the ones doing it**. I see absolutely no adults acting out. None. During the times when I’m on the train and there are no kids present, the train is quieter than a churchmouse. Also, what is this shit about letting the kids live their childhoods? Since when do kids have the RIGHT to act like fucking idiots? Explain this one to me. Wait, no need to - I think we both know they have no such right. There’s no reason to hold them to a lower standard than the rest of us. > [@](#): > > I swear, there seems to be a cult in America that says: “if we can’t be happy, the children should be miserable too!” > > Talking becomes “talking too loud”; fun becomes “troublemaking”; perfectly good music becomes “damn noise”; video games become “corruptors of our youth”. Explain how you reached this conclusion based on my post. Or is this based on your own experience? Cause guess what? They may not be the same! ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/25 "2002-10-11T14:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by featherlou \* > \*\*Where did we as a society start to embrace the idea that kids are to be held to no standards whatsoever when it comes to public behaviour? When did North American parents abdicate all responsibility for raising children that would interact in public without leaving a trail of annoyed, irritated adults behind? \*\* I think **featherlou** just scored a bullseye! ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/26 "2002-10-11T14:37:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > **But I’m the kind of pushy jerk that feels eaters and drinkers are an affront to everyone. So if I see someone eating or drinking on the train, I’ll approach and say, "I’m sorry - but there’s no eating or drinking in the system. Please put it away."** In essence, I definitely agree, but I guess I’m just not the same type. I’d just as soon just bury my nose in my book and get on with the business of getting home. In other words, ain’t my job - which isn’t a healthy attitude to have, of course. I guess I just figure it’s more trouble to me than it’s worth, because you don’t know what kind of reaction you’ll get. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/27 "2002-10-11T14:37:50Z")
Well said, **featherlou** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor \* > **So quit dumping on the kids! Their childhoods will end all too soon, so let them live em.** Since when does “Letting them live their lives” equate to “Putting up with unacceptable behavior”? Rude and dangerous behavior is not OK, even from those “pwecious wittle angels.” > [@](#): > > **I swear, there seems to be a cult in America that says: "if we can’t be happy, the children should be miserable too!"** I can honestly say “I can’t argue with that.” Mostly because it makes no sense whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/28 "2002-10-11T14:42:15Z")
Look, I don’t want to come off as someone who has zero tolerance about the behavior of other people. But these aren’t four-year-old kids. These kids are definitely at an age where they know what’s acceptable public behavior. If they don’t know, then it’s gotta rest on the parents to teach them this. Also, this didn’t just occur yesterday - this has been going on for me for two years (although not, of course, during summer months, when there’s no school). And finally, this isn’t just “talking loudly” - it’s rude, repugnant, and potentially dangerous behavior. Sorry that American kids are acting so shabbily, **Astroboy**. That shit ain’t right, no matter where you are. Even worse when you’re visiting a different culture - I’d be scared that I was offending someone. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/29 "2002-10-11T15:07:00Z")
Thank you, **featherlou**. You understand, unlike others. **dantheman** , I was poking fun at someone’s location - someone who seemingly mustn’t ride public transportation with untamed pit bulls. Someone who thinks that the problem is easily solved by telling the conductor. Those of us who live it know that the fastest way out is to switch cars (if you’re lucky enough to have subway cars that allow that) or more likely, just tough it out until your exit. I find most teens to be a little loud in groups, but not obnoxiously so. It’s the obnoxious, arrogant packs of toughs that are the problem; the ones who treat the subway/bus as their personal playground. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/30 "2002-10-11T15:24:41Z")
I feel kinda privileged because I’m the only one hre, I’ll wager who’s familiar with both the Seoul and DC subway systems, PLUS I’ve lived near Murfreesboro. **Dan** absolutely has a point. Luckily, schoolkids don’t travel at the times I do on the Metro, so I’ve been spared the noise and mess, but the timesI’ve travelled downtown on weekends…oy! Climbing the seats, eating and rinking, playing their music (all forbidden on Metro)…kids can really make the train a hell. Mind, I don’t want them kicked off the train…maybe a muzzle and leash? **Bosda** , when you depend on the DC Metro to get around and you deal with what we have to, then you can post an opinion. As it is, you don’t know what you’re talking about. And **Astroboy14** is right about the behavior of Korean kids versus Americans. I’ve lived in Seouls and have seen it for myself. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/31 "2002-10-11T18:58:05Z")
Ugh. I hated riding the bus with rowdy teenagers when _I_ was a teenager, so I can only imagine dan’s pain. And our bus was the bus for the well-to-do schools! ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/32 "2002-10-11T19:22:42Z")
I could probably make it all better for myself by simply leaving the office at a different time, say after 5ish. But then it’s mobbed with other commuters… you just can’t win! ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/33 "2002-10-11T19:24:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Every time someone complains about bad behaviour from kids in these threads, it is a very short time before someone comes along defending the kids and acting like the OP is an insensitive barbarian who shouldn’t be allowed in decent company for even _suggesting_ that kids are anything less than God’s Little Angels Here On Earth. This really chaps my ass. Where did we as a society start to embrace the idea that kids are to be held to no standards whatsoever when it comes to public behaviour? When did North American parents abdicate all responsibility for raising children that would interact in public without leaving a trail of annoyed, irritated adults behind? The pat answer that some posters inevitably trot out - “They’re just children - it’s not their fault” cuts no ice with me. They’re children that should be raised to interact in a society that is getting more crowded, where polite interactions are becoming more and more critical so that we don’t all go off the deep end and start shooting each other. Featherlou, next time I’m in your neck of the woods, I’m buying you a drink. Most of the time, you say exactly what is on my mind before I even have a chance to type it. [applauds] ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2002, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/34 "2002-10-11T20:27:08Z")
Um, Feather, I think a lot of the problem came from the fact that the OP suggested banning ALL children, not just the ones who misbehave. I’m perfectly in favour of more surveillance in the metro (one “high-spirited prank” and someone could die, after all). But banning all kids is somewhere between totally unjust and totally looney. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/35 "2002-10-12T00:08:33Z")
I more or less assumed the OP was venting from frustration, and doesn’t seriously want all kids banned forever from the Metro - he just wants them to behave themselves in public, where their actions affect other people. My post was aimed at people who have kneejerk reactions to anyone who dares to criticize children (albeit in a hyperbolic way here). ---
**Author:** ![B.Pants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@B.Pants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Pants)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/36 "2002-10-12T00:45:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by D\_Odds \* > I was poking fun at someone’s location - someone who seemingly mustn’t ride public transportation with untamed pit bulls. As a resident of the 'boro, I feel compelled to mention that there IS NO public transit system here. Maybe some untamed pit bulls, but that’s about it. If Bosda’s got public transit experience, he sure as hell didn’t get it here. Speaking with utterly no experience (except that of knowing some pretty miserable shits of children) either, I think the kids should have the privilege of riding until they fuck up. Let farecards be issued through schools, and have someone responsible for calling the kids on their shittishness. The problem with that, of course, is that whoever’s in charge of this sort of thing has to first be convinced to do it and then have enough resources to actually carry out the plan. My sympathies to all who endure unreasonable stress at the hands of children. Or anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/37 "2002-10-12T01:08:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*Um, Feather, I think a lot of the problem came from the fact that the OP suggested banning ALL children, not just the ones who misbehave. I’m perfectly in favour of more surveillance in the metro (one “high-spirited prank” and someone could die, after all). But banning all kids is somewhere between totally unjust and totally looney. \*\* Not true, Matt. That’s not what I asked. > [@](#): > > Kids should be banned from the public train system unless accompanied by an adult. > [@](#): > > So why can’t we punish these particular little shits? > [@](#): > > (Hell, maybe Metro could offer a new farecard for kids only, and these cards would be distributed only by the schools or Metro itself to deserving kids.) (And in a later post…) > [@](#): > > There are definitely some kids who are being perfect little angels, and sadly they’re lost in the confusion and chaos. I don’t mean to punish them at all. If there was some way for kids to earn their way onto the train by way of good behavior, then you’d see these kids and not the little shits. As I said, that’s probably a tad impractical, but sounds nice. I like the idea **B.Pants** has, there. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/38 "2002-10-12T01:34:55Z")
I do not have “public transportation opinions”. I have the opinion that kids have a right to exist. That they have a right to access to restaurants, public libraries, public transportation, & theatres. Children, as a natural part of growing up, are more boisterous, active, & sometimes difficult to deal with than adults. **All** children are like this at one time or another. If the banning rule some folks propose were enacted, eventually each & every child would be banned, because children, like all other people, have good & bad days. All children are like this. **Everybody** was like this as a child. **You were like this** , though you don’t seem to recall. I was part of a large family, 3 boys & a girl. Plus parents, various live-in grandparents, dogs, cats, fish, hamsters, & absolute chaos. It was fun. 🙂 And normal. Chaos _is normal_, near children. You just don’t comprehend this. All I hear in this thread are people who wouldn’t make good parents. I suspect thart the kid-critics are all only children, or from broken or disrupted families. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/39 "2002-10-12T02:00:34Z")
Pretty strong words there, chief. You’re saying anyone who has any problem whatsoever with kids is a bad parent? Great logic. Has it ever occurred to you that your brain might have taken an extended vacation here? Are you having trouble reading the words in this thread? For someone who claims to be so smart, you sure are acting like a real buffoon. You’d be better off quitting now while you’re so far behind. But assuming you won’t take that bit of advice, I’ll pick apart your latest offering. > [@](#): > > I do not have “public transportation opinions”. I have the opinion that kids have a right to exist. That they have a right to access to restaurants, public libraries, public transportation, & theatres. Hooray for you and children’s rights. No one has ever denied them a right to exist. But this might be a shock to you - they do NOT have unfettered access to all restaurants and theaters. There are restaurants that do not allow children. There are theaters that will not allow children in the theater. **No one** has a “right to exist.” Please show me the relevant laws that assign this particular right to everyone, especially children. > [@](#): > > Children, as a natural part of growing up, are more boisterous, active, & sometimes difficult to deal with than adults. All children are like this at one time or another. If the banning rule some folks propose were enacted, eventually each & every child would be banned, because children, like all other people, have good & bad days. How many children do you have? Do you have, say, several hundred million? You cannot make an absolute, blanket statement such as “all children are like this” - does not compute. You can, however, say that all children are different. Some are like this. Some are not. [/quote] > [@](#): > > All children are like this. Everybody was like this as a child. You were like this, though you don’t seem to recall. Uh, did we grow up together? What? We didn’t? Hm, you must be pretty damn smart, then - how’d you come to this conclusion? Do you mean to tell me that when you were in school every single kid in your classroom was “boisterous”? Every one? There were none who were NOT boisterous? Poppycock. > [@](#): > > And normal. Chaos is normal, near children. You just don’t comprehend this. I don’t think you’re comprehending the problem being discussed. We’re not talking about kids being a little rowdy. Please reread the thread. > [@](#): > > All I hear in this thread are people who wouldn’t make good parents. I suspect thart the kid-critics are all only children, or from broken or disrupted families. And we’re all very glad to have your esteemed opinion. I bet some of the people who have posted in here are actual parents; if I were them, I’d be a little peeved at your arrogant, judgmental attitude. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812/40 "2002-10-12T02:47:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*And we’re all very glad to have your esteemed opinion. I bet some of the people who have posted in here are actual parents; if I were them, I’d be a little peeved at your arrogant, judgmental attitude. \*\* Well, this parent of a boisterous, rowdy pre-teen (for 3 more weeks), who is trying his hardest to teach appropriate behavior and respect for others, isn’t a little peeved at the arrogant, judgmental attitude…because the attitude is laughable (and I’m being kind here). This parent remembers his own childhood and sees and understands the parallels. All the ‘adults’ are talking about little shits who shouldn’t be let outside without a leash, but someone has taken it as a blanket insult to all children (ignoring the hyperbole readily apparent in the OP). Normally, I ignore such asininity, but I feel like being a little shit myself right now so I keep provoking a further foolish remark. Has there been a change in attitude here on the SDMB? I haven’t been around too long, but must every ranter now be afraid to employ obvious hyperbole and facetiousness even in rants, unless doing so while inventing new ways to use the word “fuck”? Slink to another thread, **Bosda** , this one is too adult for you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/valley-of-the-little-shits/131812.md?page=3)