# Vampires and Holy Ground-does it matter who's in it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 15, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817 "2006-04-15T22:50:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/21 "2006-04-16T19:50:27Z")
Another way writers have handled this, from the Dungeons & Dragons Standard Reference Document: > [@](#): > > Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su) > > Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead). > > A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. How is this done? > [@](#): > > Turn Or Rebuke Undead > > Good clerics and paladins and some neutral clerics can channel positive energy, which can halt, drive off (rout), or destroy undead. > > Evil clerics and some neutral clerics can channel negative energy, which can halt, awe (rebuke), control (command), or bolster undead. > > Regardless of the effect, the general term for the activity is “turning.” When attempting to exercise their divine control over these creatures, characters make turning checks. > [@](#): > > Effect and Duration of Turning > > Turned undead flee from you by the best and fastest means available to them. They flee for 10 rounds (1 minute). If they cannot flee, they cower (giving any attack rolls against them a +2 bonus). If you approach within 10 feet of them, however, they overcome being turned and act normally. (You can stand within 10 feet without breaking the turning effect—you just can’t approach them.) You can attack them with ranged attacks (from at least 10 feet away), and others can attack them in any fashion, without breaking the turning effect. > Destroying Undead > > If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn. > [@](#): > > Evil Clerics and Undead > > Evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) or command (control) undead rather than channeling positive energy to turn or destroy them. An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning check. Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded. > Rebuked > > A rebuked undead creature cowers as if in awe (attack rolls against the creature get a +2 bonus). The effect lasts 10 rounds. > Commanded > > A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones. > > Dispelling Turning > > An evil cleric may channel negative energy to dispel a good cleric’s turning effect. The evil cleric makes a turning check as if attempting to rebuke the undead. If the turning check result is equal to or greater than the turning check result that the good cleric scored when turning the undead, then the undead are no longer turned. The evil cleric rolls turning damage of 2d6 + cleric level + Charisma modifier to see how many Hit Dice worth of undead he can affect in this way (as if he were rebuking them). > > Bolstering Undead > > An evil cleric may also bolster undead creatures against turning in advance. He makes a turning check as if attempting to rebuke the undead, but the Hit Dice result on Table: Turning Undead becomes the undead creatures’ effective Hit Dice as far as turning is concerned (provided the result is higher than the creatures’ actual Hit Dice). The bolstering lasts 10 rounds. An evil undead cleric can bolster himself in this manner. (Note to mods: The quoted text in this post is Open Game Content, and is licensed for public use under the terms of the Open Game License v1.0a. ---
**Author:** ![Marlitharn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marlitharn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlitharn)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/22 "2006-04-16T20:39:56Z")
I read a short story in which a vampire calls on a pair of uber-Yuppies in their upper Manhattan penthouse. When the he-Yuppie realizes that death is quickly approaching with sharp pointy fangs, he first tries to brandish a small cross his wife is wearing. The vamp laughs and keeps coming, and the guy panics and starts pulling cash out of his wallet and throwing it at the vamp, screaming, “Take it all! Just leave us alone!” The cash banished the vampire. Don’t remember who the author is, but I thought it was a pretty clever take on the whole “it’s not the object, it’s the faith” theory. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/23 "2006-04-16T21:20:09Z")
> [@lowkey but high locks](#): > > Kind of a side question, but isn’t holy water supposed to be dangerous to vampires too? Could someone drink holy water and have blood piousness to vampires? A plot point used in Jeffrey Sackett’s BLOOD OF THE IMPALER- secular Jew Jerry, buddy to Malcolm Harker (descendent of Keanu & Winona 😃 ), drinks a flask of wine, not knowing that it was consecrated Eucharistic wine kept by Malcolm for anti-vampire protection. Revived Vamp Lucy Westenra soon after bites drunk Jerry & so enthralls him to her. As Jerry’s Eucharistically-drunk blood courses through her, she gets feverish & finally explodes. The book is totally cool & woefully out of print! ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/24 "2006-04-16T21:21:15Z")
> [@The Sonoran Lizard King](#): > > Some writers believe Vampires die if they bite a Jew. Who? This _is_ interesting! ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/25 "2006-04-16T21:50:48Z")
I always thought that you had to believe in vampires for them to be a danger to you. By believe, I mean that vampires need to be part of your cultural mythology. Seriously, can you see a vampire going after a Hindu? “Dr Patel, I vant to suck your blood!” just doesn’t cut it… Interesting about the holy water. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/26 "2006-04-16T21:55:51Z")
In “Carpe Jugulum” Terry Pratchett writes about a family of vampires who teach themselves to discredit all vampire lore. In a way he shows us a world in which one’s belief in the holy items doesn’t matter; it’s the VAMPIRES who have to believe in the holy items. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/27 "2006-04-16T22:50:27Z")
**Bryan Ekers** , if I recall correctly, what Beni said is actually the beginning of almost all the Jewish prayers (“Baruch atah adonai”). It’s an instantly recognizable phrase that wouldn’t require speaking or understanding Hebrew to get. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/28 "2006-04-17T02:38:12Z")
> [@Helen's Eidolon](#): > > **Bryan Ekers** , if I recall correctly, what Beni said is actually the beginning of almost all the Jewish prayers (“Baruch atah adonai”). It’s an instantly recognizable phrase that wouldn’t require speaking or understanding Hebrew to get. Later scenes indicated that Imhotep managed to explain his plans in detail to Beni, and presumably Beni was able to explain certain facts to Imhotep, suggesting they could communicate well beyond simple phrase recognition. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/29 "2006-04-17T09:08:18Z")
> [@Love Rhombus](#): > > So the state of being a vampire is inherently sinful, regardless of the person’s beliefs in life? Heh, imagine an atheist vampire trying to explain why a cross hurts him… Easy. “Magic is shaped by belief, and as a vampire, I am a magical creature. Since people _believe_ crosses harm vampires, crosses harm me. It’s no different than my inability to cross running water, and _hardly_ qualifies as proof of God !” \< vampire bursts into flame from saying “God” \> There was a book, _The Logical Magician_, where holy objects _stopped_ working on vampires for just that reason; too many people stopped regarding religion as pure good. > [@glee](#): > > I can dig up the book + author if anyone’s interested (the author did several vampire stories) Barbara Hambly and _Those Who Hunt The Night_, right ? Of course, holy symbols won’t work on non-supernatural vampires; I remember the ending of one story with those where a Soviet official tried to stop one with a cross. “Comrade, Comrade ! And I thought you’d be a good Communist to the end !” Another interesting variation from _Blue Moon_ by Laurell Hamilton. When Anita Blake ( vampire hunter, devout Christian and necromancer ) and some Odin worshiping werewolves are at the werewolves holy tree, they are attacked by a hundred or so vampires. The tree was consecrated to the wrong religion, but it was consecrated with death rituals ( it’s where the werewolves hung their dead to honor Odin ); she used her necromancy to wake up the tree’s holy magic, and the entire area became holy ground, frying all the vampires. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/30 "2006-04-17T09:40:35Z")
Let’s say you’re an atheist, and you live in a world where vampires can only be affected by the faithful. Do you have to seek protection from your pious buddy, or can you use your faith in human intellect or something? Maybe your symbol could be a Darwin fish, or a Flying Spaghetti Monster t-shirt. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/31 "2006-04-19T12:56:44Z")
I knew it. [This guy](http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/homepage/hp4-18-06pp.jpg) has to be a vampire. So, how do you stop a vampope? ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/32 "2006-04-19T13:13:07Z")
Jewish Vampires… I’ve never thought about this and it is strangely appealing and MST3K . ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/33 "2006-04-19T13:16:45Z")
We’ve had these discussions about what stops vampires and what affects non-Christian vampires before. I’ve said quite a bit back then, and I’m not going to repeat it. I just want to comment on the OP – to tell the truth, I don’t recall anywhere that a vampire can’t enter a church. If vampires were excluded fronm “Holy Ground”, that weould include the cemetaries where they’re buried, wouldn’t it? I think the OP’s original assumption is flawed. Of course, it seems tio me that , to a Christan vampie, a cemetary must be one of the scariest places around. All those crosses on the tombstones, you know. I’m amazed they have the presence of mind to retrieve their coffins and some of the burial earth to rest in… ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/34 "2006-04-19T13:19:22Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Of course, it seems tio me that , to a Christan vampie, a cemetary must be one of the scariest places around. > > All those crosses on the tombstones, you know. > > I’m amazed they have the presence of mind to retrieve their coffins and some of the burial earth to rest in… They probably hire some goons. ---
**Author:** ![Cynical\_Optimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Cynical\_Optimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cynical_Optimist)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/35 "2006-04-19T13:39:54Z")
> [@Shirley Ujest](#): > > Jewish Vampires… > > I’ve never thought about this and it is strangely appealing and MST3K . But what could a Jewish vampire exist on? Surely blood isn’t kosher… ---
**Author:** ![Zog\_10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c57346/32.png) [@Zog\_10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zog_10)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/36 "2006-04-19T14:16:45Z")
> [@Shirley Ujest](#): > > Jewish Vampires… > > I’ve never thought about this and it is strangely appealing and MST3K . For your reference: [Fearless Vampire Killers](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061655/) There’s a scene in which a jewish vampire chases a girl who tries to ward him off with a cross. His response: “It vouldn’t help, shixsa!” Very weird movie btw… ---
**Author:** ![Zog\_10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c57346/32.png) [@Zog\_10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zog_10)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/37 "2006-04-19T14:18:01Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Oy! Hef you got de wrung vempire! Sorry - didn’t realize that was the same movie! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/38 "2006-04-19T15:23:17Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > We’ve had these discussions about what stops vampires and what affects non-Christian vampires before. I’ve said quite a bit back then, and I’m not going to repeat it. > > I just want to comment on the OP – to tell the truth, I don’t recall anywhere that a vampire can’t enter a church. If vampires were excluded fronm “Holy Ground”, that weould include the cemetaries where they’re buried, wouldn’t it? Well, we’ve already mentioned that vampires supposedly have problems with going into _any_ building, let alone a holy one. I suspect that the “vampires can’t enter churches” myth is related to “the Devil can’t enter churches” - as vampires were (presumably) seen as part of or belonging to the Devil, it makes sense that they too would be restricted as he was. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817/39 "2006-04-19T16:23:57Z")
The subject is dealt with in the graphic novel Greenberg The Vampire. Without spoiling anything, he lives off blood collected by his brother Ira, who is a kosher butcher. White Wolf has occasionally touched on the issue of Jewish vampires. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-holy-ground-does-it-matter-whos-in-it/352817.md?page=1)