# Vampires and werewolves: When and where were they first linked together? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 30, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839 "2010-10-30T00:17:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/1 "2010-10-30T00:17:03Z")
It seems most modern vampire tales aren’t complete if a werewolf isn’t involved somewhere in the story. But when and where did this start? I understand that Stoker’s Dracula was able to command wolves, but I don’t think this rises quite to that level. What lore or author first linked the two undead species? ---
**Author:** ![monkeylucifer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@monkeylucifer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeylucifer)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/2 "2010-10-30T00:19:41Z")
They first hooked up in Junior High at the Sadie Hawkins dance. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/3 "2010-10-30T00:30:23Z")
In one of the EC comics, a (male) werewolf and a (female) vampire hunted together until they were caught and killed. After death, she gave birth to an extremely ugly daughter. This was The Old Witch telling us about her family. No, I don’t know what year this was but I believe it would have been in the very early 50s. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/4 "2010-10-30T00:37:54Z")
[TV Tropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FurAgainstFang) has a few opinions. (To summarize, it seems to be a relatively recent cultural phenomenon, especially given that some old lore states that improperly buried dead werewolves _become_ vampires.) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/5 "2010-10-30T00:50:05Z")
Well, Dracula and the Wolf Man were both Universal Studios characters (along with Frankenstein’s monster). Universal did a series of ensemble monster movies in the 1940s. I believe the first one in which Dracula and the Wolfman both appeared was [House of Frankenstein](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036931/) (1944). Not sure if that’s really what you’re looking for though. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/6 "2010-10-30T01:00:00Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Universal did a series of ensemble monster movies in the 1940s. I believe the first one in which Dracula and the Wolfman both appeared was [House of Frankenstein](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036931/) (1944). Which was then deeply entrenched in the public psyche via that masterpiece of 1940’s horror - [Abbot and Costello meet Frankenstein](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040068/) ;). ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/7 "2010-11-19T22:09:48Z")
This is a longstanding motif in world folklore. They usually don’t appear \*together \*in folktales or practices, but they are semiotically linked in various ways. The prevalent Serbian term for vampire, _vukodlak_, literally means “wolf coat”; the usual linguistic conjecture is that the vampire was such a loathsome creature that “werewolf” was used as a euphemism to avoid direct mention; an analog would be how most English speakers use “bathroom” instead of “toilet room” or what have you. Bulgarian folklore (at least according to some ethnographers) holds that werewolves will become vampires after death. This is probably an extension of the more general slavic trope that all sorcerers and heretics are likely candidates for vampirism. Also, Stoker’s Dracula could do more than just command wolves–he could change into one! Perhaps the most notable instance is when he escaped from the ship that brought him to England: the coast guards wrote it up as a frightened dog fleeing the scene. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/8 "2010-11-20T00:10:27Z")
We did this a year or so ago, I’ll go see if I can find the thread. As **Leaper** says its weirdly recent. The first instance we could come up with a society of vampires and werewolves interacting was a ghostbusters cartoon episode from the 80’s. Note thats a little different then the Universal cross-over pics, where individual monsters meet up but they aren’t part of some larger monster community. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/9 "2010-11-20T00:12:05Z")
[Earlier thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=566116&highlight=vampire) (slightly different topic, but close). ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/10 "2010-11-20T01:06:01Z")
I find it a little bizarre that you want to exclude the Bram Stoker story. That seems to be clearly where the modern connection began in popular culture. Dracula commanded wolves and shifted into one. When he came to London he commanded men in the same way he commanded the wolves in Transylvania. Now, there weren’t actual shape shifting men into wolves, but the connection was pretty firmly established I think. It was a small leap to connect the werewolf mythology at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/11 "2010-11-20T01:45:59Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I find it a little bizarre that you want to exclude the Bram Stoker story. That seems to be clearly where the modern connection began in popular culture. Dracula commanded wolves and shifted into one. When he came to London he commanded men in the same way he commanded the wolves in Transylvania. Now, there weren’t actual shape shifting men into wolves, but the connection was pretty firmly established I think. It was a small leap to connect the werewolf mythology at that point. I was unaware he was able to transform into a wolf. I figured that just commanding them didn’t quite fit the bill, but if he was a vampire and a werewolf, that would be a valid connection. But was it the first? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/12 "2010-11-20T01:52:34Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I find it a little bizarre that you want to exclude the Bram Stoker story. That seems to be clearly where the modern connection began in popular culture. Dracula commanded wolves and shifted into one. When he came to London he commanded men in the same way he commanded the wolves in Transylvania. Now, there weren’t actual shape shifting men into wolves, but the connection was pretty firmly established I think. It was a small leap to connect the werewolf mythology at that point. That gives me an idea for some really fun mythology–that Dracula was the son of a werewolf and a vampire… ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/13 "2010-11-20T01:53:59Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I was unaware he was able to transform into a wolf. In the novel, Dracula’s shape-shifting abilities are pretty general though. He turns into a rat, bat, and fog as well as a wolf through-out the course of the story. So I’m not sure he was really any closer to a werewolf then he was a were-bat, were-rat or were-…errr…fogbank? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/14 "2010-11-20T02:26:45Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > In the novel, Dracula’s shape-shifting abilities are pretty general though. He turns into a rat, bat, and fog as well as a wolf through-out the course of the story. So I’m not sure he was really any closer to a werewolf then he was a were-bat, were-rat or were-…errr…fogbank? How long have vampires been associated with were-fogbanks? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/15 "2010-11-20T04:16:55Z")
It is at least as old as _Dracula_, but it really took off with White Wolf Games’s _World of Darkness_ products, on which the _Underworld_ movies are (loosely) based. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/16 "2010-11-20T04:31:14Z")
Vamps as were-fogbanks? A while now, actually. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/17 "2010-11-20T12:44:24Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > In the novel, Dracula’s shape-shifting abilities are pretty general though. He turns into a rat, bat, and fog as well as a wolf through-out the course of the story. So I’m not sure he was really any closer to a werewolf then he was a were-bat, were-rat or were-…errr…fogbank? Yeah, but that’s just Dracula. To quote a knowledgeable source: \* “… That glory hound’s done more harm to vampires than any slayer. His story gets out, and suddenly everybody knows how to kill us. You know, the mirror bit?” “But he’s not just a regular vampire. I mean, he has special powers, right?”\* \* “Nothing but showy gypsy stuff.”\* ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/18 "2010-11-20T16:14:35Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Yeah, but that’s just Dracula. To quote a knowledgeable source: > \* > “… That glory hound’s done more harm to vampires than any slayer. His story gets out, and suddenly everybody knows how to kill us. You know, the mirror bit?” > > “But he’s not just a regular vampire. I mean, he has special powers, right?”\* \* > > “Nothing but showy gypsy stuff.”\* William the Bloody was just bitter. After all, Dracula still owed him five quid. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/19 "2010-11-22T16:20:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That gives me an idea for some really fun mythology–that Dracula was the son of a werewolf and a vampire… Not so much. As I indicated, lycanthropy has historically been associated with vampirism in folklore. Even in fiction, LeFanu’s \*Carmilla \*transformed into a cat, and nobody thought this was much of a stretch. > [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > How long have vampires been associated with were-fogbanks? 😉 Further back than you’d think. There’s a folk tradition that the vampire escapes the grave by changing into mist and seeping out of the grave. This goes back to at least the 1700s in the Balkans. I believe it’s prevalent in Chinese folklore as well, but I don’t have my books on the subject here at work. ETA: There’s also a longstanding tradition that vampires can transform into lepidopterans. Surprised no fiction writer (that I know of) has done anything with that. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839/20 "2010-11-22T16:32:41Z")
Also, the thread Simplicio cites includes some pining for a vampires vs. cowboys meme. Stoker shared the sentiment: his character Quincy Morris may be [loosely based on Buffalo Bill](http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/107.4/ah0402001124.html). (The linked article goes into other matters, but that’s it’s own story.) If you want more than scant allusion, [look no further](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSs-Zlxn6Kg). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vampires-and-werewolves-when-and-where-were-they-first-linked-together/558839.md?page=2)