# Van lifer goes missing on cross country trip with fiancee **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 13, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604 "2021-09-13T13:48:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 71
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1433 "2022-06-27T14:10:40Z")
The parents allegedly lied to the police and were uncooperative. There could be an obstruction of justice charge? The parents were represented by an attorney the entire time. I don’t know if they crossed a line or not. People aren’t always truthful with their attorneys and that limits how effectively they can represent them. I’ve seen reports there is a FBI Investigation. Let’s see what develops from that investigation. I’d prefer they get punished in the civil court. There was a hearing about the civil lawsuit June 22. A trial hasn’t been decided. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1434 "2022-06-27T14:14:00Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’d prefer they get punished in the civil court. There was a hearing about the civil lawsuit June 22. A trial hasn’t been decided. In a civil case you’d have to establish damages. And a duty to the plaintiff. Perhaps there’s a way, but I’m skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1435 "2022-06-27T14:17:50Z")
I understand nothing else may happen in this case. I remember that long and difficult search for Brian in that swamp. A lot of public money was spent. Sometimes the legal system has a remedy. I’m curious to see how things proceed. I’m not heavily invested in the story anymore. The couple is dead and both families have to grieve and find a new future. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1436 "2022-06-28T02:38:57Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > There’s a strong strain of ‘_a man has a right to do what he wants to his woman, so long as he’s willing to pay the price_ [in this case suicide]’ in our culture. Our culture endorses murder-suicide? What on earth do you mean by this? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1437 "2022-06-28T23:12:57Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Our culture endorses murder-suicide? What on earth do you mean by this? At the moment I can’t think of “proof” that many in our culture think ‘_well, it’s bad he killed her, but he paid for it, so…he’s not that bad a guy_’—other than to point to posting along that lines all over the Internet. I still think it’s largely true that many tend to process murder-suicides that way. If I come across research that supports this viewpoint, I’ll post it. Notice also that I did _not_ post “Our culture endorses murder-suicide.” What I did post was “there’s a strong strain of [acceptance of m-s] in our culture.” Not the same thing. (Your post straw-manned my argument to a degree.) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1438 "2022-06-29T00:42:55Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > At the moment I can’t think of “proof” that many in our culture think ‘_well, it’s bad he killed her, but he paid for it, so…he’s not that bad a guy_’—other than to point to posting along that lines all over the Internet. > > I still think it’s largely true that many tend to process murder-suicides that way. If I come across research that supports this viewpoint, I’ll post it. It’s all over the internet, but you cannot link to any examples? ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1439 "2022-06-29T17:03:12Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > In California, the duty of confidentiality (which is slightly different from the attorney- client privilege), is absolute and survives the death of the client. This article indicates that’s also the case in Florida: What, in general, is required if a lawyer has been told, by the client, that the client has done something awful, or is planning to do so? I gather that “has done” would be covered under confidentiality. But don’t lawyers have a right or responsibility to report if the client states he is planning on committing a crime? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1440 "2022-06-29T17:22:36Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > But don’t lawyers have a right or responsibility to report if the client states he is planning on committing a crime? yes, in some cases. There are “may report” and “shall report” circumstances. Here’s the rule in Washington (pretty typical, but not universal. RPC 1.6 > CONFIDENTIALITY OF INFORMATION > (a) A lawyer shall not reveal information relating to the representation of a client unless the > client gives informed consent, the disclosure is impliedly authorized in order to carry out the > representation or the disclosure is permitted by paragraph (b). > (b) A lawyer to the extent the lawyer reasonably believes necessary: > (1) shall reveal information relating to the representation of a client to prevent reasonably > certain death or substantial bodily harm; > (2) may reveal information relating to the representation of a client to prevent the client > from committing a crime; > (3) may reveal information relating to the representation of a client to prevent, mitigate or > rectify substantial injury to the financial interests or property of another that is reasonably certain > to result or has resulted from the client’s commission of a crime or fraud in furtherance of which > the client has used the lawyer’s services; > (4) may reveal information relating to the representation of a client to secure legal advice > about the lawyer’s compliance with these Rules; > (5) may reveal information relating to the representation of a client to establish a claim or > defense on behalf of the lawyer in a controversy between the lawyer and the client, to establish a > defense to a criminal charge or civil claim against the lawyer based upon conduct in which the > client was involved, or to respond to allegations in any proceeding concerning the lawyer’s > representation of the client; > (6) may reveal information relating to the representation of a client to comply with a court > order; > (7) may reveal information relating to the representation to detect and resolve conflicts of > interest arising from the lawyer’s change of employment or from changes in the composition or > ownership of a firm, but only if the revealed information would not compromise the attorney- > client privilege or otherwise prejudice the client; or > (8) may reveal information relating to the representation of a client to inform a tribunal > about any client’s breach of fiduciary responsibility when the client is serving as a court > appointed fiduciary such as a guardian, personal representative, or receiver. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1441 "2022-06-29T18:00:42Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > There’s a strong strain of ‘_a man has a right to do what he wants to his woman, so long as he’s willing to pay the price_ [in this case suicide]’ in our culture. Actually, in the midwest, I hear much more _“A man’s a pussy if he hurts women, and a coward if he then commits suicide”_ ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1442 "2022-06-29T18:45:04Z")
It varies by state, but broadly trends strongly pro-confidentiality. In California, there is no “shall reveal” circumstance. A lawyer is never ethically obliged to reveal a client disclosure. Under the Rules of Professional Conduct, rule 1.6, a lawyer _may_ reveal a confidential client communication if the lawyer reasonably believes the disclosure is necessary to prevent a criminal act that the lawyer reasonably believes is likely to result in the death of, or substantial bodily harm to, an individual. _However,_ the lawyer must first make a good-faith effort to persuade the client not to commit the criminal act, and inform the client of the lawyer’s ability or decision to reveal the relevant info. _And_ the lawyer’s disclosure must be no more than is necessary to prevent the criminal act, given the information known to the lawyer at the time of disclosure. So, hypothetically, under the California rules, if Laundrie had told his lawyer that he was planning to strangle Petito, the lawyer would not be obligated to reveal this information to anyone. If the lawyer believed he meant it, and she wanted to try to stop it from happening, she would first have to try to talk him out if it, and at some point, she would have to warn him that this was the sort of secret she was allowed to reveal. If she failed to talk him out of it, she would probably be OK if she reached out only to Petito directly to warn her. If the lawyer were unable to contact Petito, she might be OK informing the police of a threat made against Petito’s life, though whether she could ethically reveal that it was Laundrie who made the threat is debatable. Calling a press conference to share all the juicy details with us internet looky-loos would be right out. And once Petito is dead, and especially once Laundrie is dead, it’s really hard to make that argument of reasonable belief in the necessity of disclosure to prevent someone being hurt or killed. And of course, in reality, I doubt Laundrie formulated his intent to kill her very far in advance of doing so, or that he consulted a lawyer in the meantime. (I used female pronouns for Laundrie’s hypothetical California lawyer just for ease of keeping track of who’s who; I don’t remember or care about the gender of the lawyer he eventually did hire.) ---
**Author:** ![Lancia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lancia/32/17174_2.png) [@Lancia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lancia)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1443 "2022-06-29T20:03:34Z")
So it sounds like that whatever Laundrie might have told his lawyer is something we’ll never know (or at least, we won’t find out from his lawyer). ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1444 "2022-06-29T23:31:44Z")
Does that include intent to commit the crime (in Florida) of suicide? ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1445 "2022-06-30T01:00:04Z")
Great question. I don’t know, so I looked into it. The tricky thing with the California rule is it requires that the act likely to result in death etc be a _criminal_ act, which attempted suicide is not, here. This is a departure from the ABA model rules, which don’t require that the intended harmful act be criminal. So I don’t believe Laundrie’s hypothetical California attorney could disclose if he threatened suicide in California. If he told his California attorney that he intended to commit suicide in Florida, where it’s (maybe; I’m actually not sure you’re right about this) illegal? Gawd, I dunno. A cursory search doesn’t turn up anything on point as far as whether it has to be a crime in California, or if it can just be a crime in the jurisdiction where it’s intended to be carried out. Maybe it’s never come up in court. In other jurisdictions without the requirement for a criminal act, there have been opinions in favor of disclosure. (Some links are broken but can be found by Googling.) > **[Clients and Suicide: The Lawyer’s Dilemma – LLRX](https://www.llrx.com/2014/10/clients-and-suicide-the-lawyers-dilemma/)** I also found this article indicating disclosure is kosher under Florida’s ethical rules: > **[What are a lawyer’s obligations to a suicidal client?](https://www.floridabar.org/the-florida-bar-news/what-are-a-lawyers-obligations-to-a-suicidal-client/)** > > If a client discloses an intent to commit suicide, a lawyer’s first obligations should be the same as any sensitive and understanding individual. “The client’s disclosure may be a cry for attention or help, and the lawyer should make a special effort... Edited-- hit post too soon. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1446 "2022-06-30T02:35:12Z")
Thanks! That was very informative. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1447 "2022-06-30T04:12:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > > [@Sherrerd](#): > > > > At the moment I can’t think of “proof” that many in our culture think ‘_well, it’s bad he killed her, but he paid for it, so…he’s not that bad a guy_’—other than to point to posting along that lines all over the Internet. > > > > I still think it’s largely true that many tend to process murder-suicides that way. If I come across research that supports this viewpoint, I’ll post it. > > It’s all over the internet, but you cannot link to any examples? I’m not seeing a way to link to posts in this thread without the account name showing (and it’s not my goal to single out anyone posting here). So I’ll quote and also give the post number. Anyway, here are a couple of posts that offer that flavor of ‘he’s not such a bad guy after all’: #1248: > [@](#): > > POSTER A: I’m not so convinced it was a suicide. If he had indeed decided to off himself, why drive out to the swamp and do it there? Why not off himself in his bedroom? > > POSTER B: Out of consideration for his parents, probably. He may have even been trying to leave no trace of his body to spare their feelings. #1326 > [@](#): > > …I understand you, and many others, feel strongly about him. There are very good reasons to write him off as garbage but even bad people make good decisions sometimes. For the real hardcore ‘_Brian did what he had to do and then redeemed himself_’ style of response, admittedly, you’d probably have to go to the Chans or other sites that attract “men’s rights” enthusiasts. I’m not going to link to those sites. Overall: it’s subjective. My best piece of evidence is probably the measurable drop-off in interest in the case once the authorities said “yeah, the remains are of Brian Laundrie.” Media coverage as well as internet talk both dropped–even though Petito was just as dead and almost certainly just as murdered as she had been before that announcement. But, you know…it’s all over and settled. Why would anyone think the topic of someone killing his romantic partner worthy of anyone’s time? (Or at least that’s how many seem to feel.) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1448 "2022-06-30T04:27:03Z")
All I can say is that I see _absolutely nothing_ in those posts that you quoted that resembles anything like what you claimed: > [@Sherrerd](#): > > There’s a strong strain of ‘_a man has a right to do what he wants to his woman, so long as he’s willing to pay the price_ [in this case suicide]’ in our culture. How do you get that from a discussion of _where_ he committed suicide in post #1248? And I’ve read post #1326 in full, and there is no indication that “even bad people make good decisions sometimes” meant anything like that either. You are seeing something incredibly sinister where there is just no evidence for it. I mean, I believe people say shit like this on places like 4chan, but that’s just a reason to stay away from those places. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1449 "2022-08-09T02:01:56Z")
The latest lawsuit: > **[Gabby Petito’s family to file $50m wrongful death case against Utah police](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/08/gabby-petito-family-lawsuit-utah-police)** > > The lawsuit alleges that when officers stopped the couple on 12 August last year, they did not recognize that Petito was in danger I think this is crazy. Remember “The responding officer wrote that Gabrielle “Gabby” Petito, 22, slapped Brian Laundrie after an argument”–thus she was the aggressor according to the information the police department had. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1450 "2022-08-11T02:27:25Z")
I’m surprised they could even file a claim for negligence on this basis. I thought, normally, there was no recognized legal duty (such as would give rise to a cause of action for its breach) for the police to investigate crimes or make arrests. Perhaps Utah allows for such a claim? Or maybe this lawsuit won’t make it very far… ETA: But while we’re on the subject, it’s just possible that a more nuanced view of intimate partner violence could be appropriate. It’s not uncommon for the primary abuser to provoke their partner into a response–perhaps even a physical response–and then have that turn out to be the first police interaction (whether because the primary abuser makes the call, or because they do it in a public enough place that others call). The abuser can then use that police interaction–in which the abuser is the supposed victim–as additional leverage to hold over their partner. It’s the “I’m not touching you!” scenario taken to the extreme. Particularly as there might actually _be_ touching (even violence) but done in such a way or under such circumstances that the police never get involved. Until of course the partner–the victim of the primary abuser–snaps and hits back. Literally. Then all of the sudden it’s “I’m being repressed! Come and see the violence inherent in the [relationship]!” And I am absolutely satisfied that the murderer in this case was the primary abuser even before he turned to murder. He was a piece of shit, and should get no credit whatsoever for killing himself or for his half-assed suicide note. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1451 "2022-08-11T02:57:04Z")
You can always file a claim. Doesn’t mean it has any chance of going anywhere. I can’t imagine qualified immunity not applying in a case like this. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604/1452 "2022-08-11T14:38:38Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > I can’t imagine qualified immunity not applying in a case like this. It’s not so much qualified immunity as lack of “duty.” The more common case is the police don’t arrest a drunk who then kills someone. Or you call 911 and no one shows up. Perhaps they can establish something here, but it’s a tough one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604.md?page=70) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/van-lifer-goes-missing-on-cross-country-trip-with-fiancee/950604.md?page=72)