# Vaping saves lives - regulation should keep that in mind **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2017, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201 "2017-10-18T07:12:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/42 "2017-10-22T04:40:25Z")
Do the math. Let’s call the dangers of vaping 1/100 the danger of cigarettes. That’s probably a good first order estimate. In the USA, 16% of the population are smokers. Let’s assume the absolute worst case scenario. Let’s say that vaping temps **everyone alive in the united states** to pick up the habit. So roughly 6 times as many people would be smoking as are smoking now. Or 6 \* 0.01 = 6% of the deaths and illness caused by cigarettes now. The solution here is a no-brainer. Manufactured cigarettes should be gradually made completely illegal. I can’t distribute batteries in the store that are rigged to explode if you use them day in and day out, can I? So why should I be able to wrap nicotine containing leaves in carcinogenic paper and sell them? I’m ok with the sale of rolling paper and loose tobacco continuing. If people are rolling their own cigarettes, it makes them liable for the damage they are doing to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/43 "2017-10-22T05:23:04Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Because we want Blizzard to continue to make quality games. You jest, but this is actually an interesting point. Should loot boxes be regulated in the same way as gambling? They are very similar from an addiction point of view, and countries all over the world are already looking into them. China in particular has been very concerned about loot boxes, or gatchapon type mobile games in particular. I have not made up my mind, but I’ve been very interested in the studies. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/44 "2017-10-22T05:59:43Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > I disagree with the proposed reasoning that because something might be LESS harmful than something else it resembles, that it should avoid scrutiny and regulation for how it IS dangerous. > > Establishing a legal principle like that would lead to all sorts of absurdly bad law. It’s not really that it’s less harmful than something it resembles, and more that it’s _considerably_ less harmful than something it replaces. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/45 "2017-10-22T06:45:02Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Praise Jesus! I mean, the Enlightment has been a thing. Just because America has been regressing, doesn’t mean it’s impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/46 "2017-10-22T15:02:38Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > I disagree with the proposed reasoning that because something might be LESS harmful than something else it resembles, that it should avoid scrutiny and regulation for how it IS dangerous. > > Establishing a legal principle like that would lead to all sorts of absurdly bad law. We could also decide that other activities far less harmful than smoking should be minimally or not at all regulated. Why inflict workplace safety regulations on private industry, when the number of workers killed each year in the U.S. is less than one-hundredth the death toll from smoking? Those regulations are job killers! Only a tiny number of people are harmed every year by accidents on amusement park rides. Stop regulating them too. Contaminated foods, adulterated supplement pills, Ikea dressers - we could go on and on. They’re all way less harmful than smoking, and regulating them results in increased costs and inconvenience for consumers. Or maybe we can craft reasonable rules in each instance to protect the public without giving in to special pleading. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/47 "2017-10-22T16:48:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > We could also decide that other activities far less harmful than smoking should be minimally or not at all regulated. > > Why inflict workplace safety regulations on private industry, when the number of workers killed each year in the U.S. is less than one-hundredth the death toll from smoking? Those regulations are job killers! > Only a tiny number of people are harmed every year by accidents on amusement park rides. Stop regulating them too. Contaminated foods, adulterated supplement pills, Ikea dressers - we could go on and on. They’re all way less harmful than smoking, and regulating them results in increased costs and inconvenience for consumers. > > Or maybe we can craft reasonable rules in each instance to protect the public without giving in to special pleading. Is anyone making the argument that there should be no regulations on vapes? If so, please quote. The point of the OP was that vaping does have a public benefit, and that should be taken into account in the regulations, so as to not reduce the effectiveness of that public benefit. It would not be difficult to regulate the vaping industry to essentially put it out of business, and that is the sort of thing that is being cautioned about. In your analogies, it is not putting into place regulations at workplaces or amusement parks that is being opposed, but the shutting down of workplaces and amusement parks because they cannot meet unrealistic regulations that were put in place specifically to make those places close down. ETA: re-reading your post, I may have been wooshed a bit. If so, my post is directed at the poster you were responding to. ---
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/48 "2017-10-22T17:12:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > In your analogies, it is not putting into place regulations at workplaces or amusement parks that is being opposed, but the shutting down of workplaces and amusement parks because they cannot meet unrealistic regulations that were put in place specifically to make those places close down. ^ This. There’s a pretty big difference between regulating for safety, and intentionally over-regulating for the specific purpose of making a business impossible and illegal in practice because so many regulations are placed on it. Just look at abortion clinic laws in Texas. Ceiling 8" high? What a coincidence… we just passed a law that requires all abortion clinics to have 10" high ceilings. Don’t have an operating room because you don’t perform surgeries, you just provide morning-after pills? Sorry, all clinics have to have an operating room. Oh, look, the zoning just came up for review - I’m sorry, it looks like your clinic is in a residential-only zone now. Looks like you’ll have to build a new location. And on and on…the irony being that the party that so often rails against burdensome regulations (IE, not being able to rape and pillage the environment sufficiently and exploit workers) are the ones that are enacting all of these regulations intended to make something illegal without all the pesky democracy stuff. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/49 "2017-10-22T19:29:26Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > It’s not really that it’s less harmful than something it resembles, and more that it’s _considerably_ less harmful than something it replaces. You are ignoring the point I made, not answering it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/50 "2017-10-22T23:23:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The problem is that like you said, vaping is just as addictive. We have made very good progress working to eliminate smoking in the US. Within a generation or two, we might have it successfully eradicated. That’s good for society – lower Healthcare costs, leas lung cancer, etc. If vaping makes it so easy and culturally “safe” to smoke, you are effectively lowering the “barriers of entry” for new people to start smoking. Like you yourself said, vaping is still addictive and dangerous – just less so. Obviously we want current smokers to vape instead if there is no will or way for them to quit otherwise, but we don’t want new people (especially young ones) to take up either smoking or vaping. I think regulation should take that into account, too. Yesbut, I have know quite a few people who have quit smoking to turn to vaping. I dont know anyone who just started to vape. Vapeing is far less dangerous and “second hand smoke” which **kills 50000 Americans a year** is no longer a threat. Restricting vaping is just plain stupid and will slow down the end of smoking. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/51 "2017-10-22T23:36:03Z")
> [@AI\_Proofreader](#): > > I completely agree that tobacco is by far the most dangerous drug that can be taken, in terms of long-term fatalities. I still don’t think it should be illegal; for the same reason you give for not making alcohol illegal. It’s simply not practical. > > If we lived in that same world where opium had to be transported from the other side of the world via boats costing enormous time and expense… maybe. But if you outlawed tobacco, some would quit; many others would simply begin growing it hydroponically, or ordering it from The Silk Road, or getting it from their street dealer who got it from a distributor who smuggled it over the border. > > It would be more expensive, it would be more dangerous. It would involve possible legal consequences as disastrous to their lives as the health problems they’ll probably suffer later in life. But people will still do it. And those who grow it will still profit from it, arguably **much more** than they did while it was legal. Yes, Prohibition didnt work. But it didnt really “fail” either: > **[Did Prohibition Really Work? Alcohol Prohibition as a Public Health Innovation](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470475/)** > > The conventional view that National Prohibition failed rests upon an historically flimsy base. The successful campaign to enact National Prohibition was the fruit of a century-long temperance campaign, experience of which led prohibitionists to... Do note that like 70% of Americans were drinkers, and 40% were pretty serious drinkers. Trying to ban something that 40-70% do is tough. _But only around 15% of Americans smoke._ And vaping and nicotine patches would be there after a ban. “Growing your own” is a lot tougher than brewing your own. You have to dry it, etc. _We could ban smoking._ Start with- Ban all smoking in public. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/52 "2017-10-23T18:01:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “Growing your own” is a lot tougher than brewing your own. You have to dry it, etc. Yes, the tough restriction on having to “grow your own” has clearly stopped the marijuana industry dead in it’s tracks, so it makes perfect sense that no one would grow tobacco either. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/53 "2017-10-23T18:42:25Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > Yes, the tough restriction on having to “grow your own” has clearly stopped the marijuana industry dead in it’s tracks, so it makes perfect sense that no one would grow tobacco either. > > :dubious: I was unaware people are actually growing tobacco indoors under lights, but they’re out there. I saw an estimate from an LED lights seller that one can derive a carton’s worth of cigarettes from just four tobacco plants. :dubious: Even if that’s so, I’d bear in mind that these plants get big (got eight foot ceilings in your basement?), there are curing/aging steps that might require special facilities, and you’d have to maintain a pretty large area under continuous cultivation in order to feed your nicotine habit. I’ve grown tobacco (on an ornamental basis) outdoors, but it sounds like a potential mess in a basement grow setup, not to mention expensive. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/54 "2017-10-26T05:08:51Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > Yes, the tough restriction on having to “grow your own” has clearly stopped the marijuana industry dead in it’s tracks, so it makes perfect sense that no one would grow tobacco either. > > :dubious: Hemp grows like…well a weed. Tobacco, not so much, and likeI said,it requires drying sheds, etc. By no means impossible, but also few grow marijuana for personal use, most grow to sell- at very high prices. Not $10 a pack prices. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/55 "2017-10-26T12:31:15Z")
New York [has joined the list of states](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/24/559833483/new-york-bans-vaping-indoors-in-public-state-law-classes-e-cigs-with-cigarettes) that have banned vaping in indoor public places. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/56 "2017-10-31T17:54:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > By no means impossible, but also few grow marijuana for personal use, most grow to sell- at very high prices. Not $10 a pack prices. My eperience differs, as I know dozens of people who grow pot for personal use, and only a couple of industrial growers. My point was that having to grow a plant does not seem to be a sufficient barrier to entry to stop people from doing drugs. Hell, advanced chemistry that can blow up in your face and kill you does not seem to be a sufficient barrier to entry to stop people from doing drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Lorne\_Armstrong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@Lorne\_Armstrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lorne_Armstrong)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/57 "2017-11-01T08:23:55Z")
> [@AI\_Proofreader](#): > > \*\*Outlawing or heavily restricting drugs such as morphine, amphetamines, and opioids doesn’t lead to decreased usage. \*\*. Are you serious? ---
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/58 "2017-11-01T10:34:59Z")
> [@Lorne\_Armstrong](#): > > Are you serious? Absolutely. > **[After 40-Year Fight, Illicit Drug Use at All-Time High](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/after-40year-fight-illici_b_3623714)** > > Despite aggressive policies and enforcement actions against every link in the chain of producers, distributors and users, the illicit trade has become more prolific than ever, exacting a painful toll on every area of society it touches. > **[A Chart That Says the War on Drugs Isn't Working](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/chart-says-war-drugs-isnt-working/322592/)** > > The controversial war on drugs not only costs a lot, it has done almost nothing to curb the drug addiction rate since 1970, according to this stunning chart by documentary filmmaker Matt Groff comparing the cost of drug control to the drug... ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/59 "2017-11-01T12:24:30Z")
You don’t have to outlaw or severely restrict sales of something to cut heavily into its use (although that can be effective - Prohibition for all its faults did cause Americans to significantly reduce drinking). Just raise taxes enough on it. \*"…the evidence…strongly supports increasing cigarette prices through tobacco taxation as a powerful strategy for achieving major reductions in smoking behavior among some, but not all, high-risk populations. For instance, increasing the price of cigarettes is a very effective policy tool for reducing smoking participation and consumption among youth, young adults and persons of low socioeconomic status."\* > **[Effects of Tobacco Taxation and Pricing on Smoking Behavior in High Risk...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3228562/)** > > Tobacco taxation is an essential component of a comprehensive tobacco control strategy. However, to fully realize the benefits it is vital to understand the impact of increased taxes among high-risk subpopulations. Are they influenced to the same... Make vaping expensive enough and that’ll discourage young people from doing it. They’ll stick to healthier alternatives, like churchgoing and pot smoking. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/60 "2019-08-23T23:09:02Z")
Maybe not. . . [State health officials report vaping-related death, warn of dangerous symptoms](https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20190823/state-health-officials-report-vaping-related-death-warn-of-dangerous-symptoms) > [@](#): > > Illinois officials said Friday that a person who had recently used an e-cigarette and was hospitalized with severe lung illness died. > > The death appears to be the first among a spate of mysterious lung illnesses now under investigation by state and federal health officials in connection with vaping – at least 193 cases in 22 states, many in teens and young adults, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. > . . . > > The person who died in Illinois was an adult, said Jennifer Layden, chief medical officer for the state, on a call. No further details about the person or what device or product had been used was provided. > > “The severity of illness people are experiencing is alarming and we must get the word out that using e-cigarettes and vaping can be dangerous,” Illinois Public Health Director Ngozi Ezike said in a statement. > > . . . > > Emily Chapman, chief medical officer of Children’s Minnesota, a hospital that has had several cases of lung injury related to vaping in the past month, said many of the cases have followed a similar and frightening pattern. The patient appears to have a viral infection – with a fever, headache, muscle pain and an upset stomach – that quickly progresses into what appears to be pneumonia. But testing turns up no signs of an infection. Instead, the condition continues to progress, with increasing inflammation in the lungs to the point that they stop functioning properly. > > Several patients have been treated in the intensive care unit and even needed a ventilator to help them breathe. > > “Even patients themselves have been stunned because there is this misconception that it’s safe,” Chapman said. To be fair, it’s not known at this point whether the death was caused by vaping or by what was vaped > [@](#): > > While some of the cases appear similar, officials said they don’t know whether the illnesses are associated with the e-cigarette devices themselves or with specific ingredients or contaminants inhaled through them. Health officials have said patients have described vaping a variety of substances, including nicotine, marijuana-based products and do-it-yourself “home brews.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/61 "2019-08-24T01:46:30Z")
The explosion of popularity of vaping in High Schoolers and even Middle Schoolers has perplexed me. The numbers are scary high and it is a disconnect from other behavior choices they are making. Overall they are a group that has excelled at making healthier choices than those before them had made. Feedback from kids, not a scientific sampling, is a perception of safety and the flavors, along with low risk of getting caught, are major factors. My personal opinion is that regulating the marketing that appeals to kids (inclusive of the flavors) and better education on the potential risks, is a minimum required. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201.md?page=4)